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  • Sol Pacificus
    Sol Pacificus closed this thread because:
    Results have been finalized
    22:00, June 7, 2020

    Updated on 23/05/2020 at 9PM Brasilia Time to include yet another merge proposal.


    Brothers, sisters, non-binary siblings, odd cousins we don’t talk about! Welcome, take a seat and let me explain. Being inspired by last thread (Proto-Assassin vs. Assassin & Proto-Templar vs. Templar) and our amazing interactions that did end up with answers (!) I decided to make this thread to have a new place to approach (and hopefully resolve) the pending merges of this great publishing house.

    As of today, May 21st 2020 there are 25 proposed merges, with the latest being Zeus and Jupiter.

    We shall become prosecution, defense and jury for this trial I have prepared for us. I will present the accused pages and whatever discussion that has taken place in relation to the merges in order to inform us.

    Should this thread behave the way I imagine, this will be followed by gentle discussions and questions before we vote on the charges.

    Let’s start with something simple:

    Category Pages

    There are three category pages with proposed merging, as seen in the table below. None of them have any discussions archived in their talk pages. Two of them concern the merge of a city category with their respective state category.

    Page 1 Page 2 Under
    Category:New Orleans Category:Louisiana Category:Louisiana
    Category: Historical documents Category:Document collections Category:Documents
    Category: Boston Category: Massachusetts Category: Massachusetts

    A nice aperitif, I think. Short, and to the point. Let’s move on to places, then.

    Location Pages

    Only two, this time though I believe there will be more discussion on them:

    Page 1 Page 2 Under
    Syria Levant Levant
    Sanctuary of Kosmos Cave of Gaia Sanctuary of Kosmos

    There is no discussion on Syria and the Levant, though I believe the idea was that the Levant encompasses more than just the modern state of Syria, which was established in 1920 far after its appearances in AC. The only content of the Syria page is because of the happenings at Masyaf during AC1 and AC: Revelations.

    The other one we do have a discussion on, dating from early 2019:

    • Sadelyrate: Yes, the 'Cave of Gaia' is specifically mentioned by Herodotos. But given that The Art of Assassin's Creed: Odyssey refers to the Sanctuary of Kosmos as Temple of Gaia, and Cave of Gaia is specifically where said Sanctuary is, should we just equal the two?
    • Jasca Ducato: The Cave of Gaia is located near the Sanctuary of Kosmos, meaning that the two locations are distinctly separate.
    • Sadelyrate: Pythia merely mentions 'ancient chamber' which is exactly where the Cult meets. After Kassandra mentions this to Herodotos, he goes "The Temple of Apollo is by the Cave of Gaia - simple enough to find." To me, that looks like Herodotos is equaling the Sanctuary of Kosmos with the Cave of Gaia.
    • Lacrossedeamon: In the novel the Sanctuary of Kosmos is unnamed but it is physically located within the geographical feature the Cave of Gaia which is named.
    • Sadelyrate: The novel doesn't elaborate on that? (Tbh, this is one of the things that bother me w/Odyssey. On one hand, full of awesome details. On the other, weird choices and "Oops, we forgot to remove/add/update that".)

    In February of this year, Sal tried to jump start the conversation again:

    • Sadelyrate: Ancient chamber = Sanctuary of Kosmos, which is referred to in the artbook as 'Temple of Gaia'. In the novel, Sanctuary of Kosmos isn't named, and they meet within the Cave of Gaia. In addition, historically there was a Sanctuary of Gaia right by the temple of Apollo in Delphi. There's still reason enough to keep these two articles apart?

    I don’t think there are, but the idea of a jury is that we all get to vote. Before that, though, let’s keep going.

    Other Pages

    Oh, don’t worry, there are more categories, but since this ordering is being done difficulty-wise, it places here.

    Page 1 Page 2 Under
    Games and media Assassin's Creed (series) Assassin's Creed (series)
    Guild challenges (Revelations) Guild challenges (Brotherhood) Guild challenges
    Memory extraction Genetic memory Genetic memory
    Riverboats Boat Boat
    Shay Cormac's fleet The Naval Campaign The Naval Campaign
    Twelve Gods Greek mythology Greek mythology

    On the subject of “Games and Media” there is no discussion on the merge. I will, however make a proposal: Don’t merge the two pages, instead move “Games and Media” into a gallery page for “Assassin’s Creed Series”. It would preserve the pages, and I believe the use for G&M (more of a quick visual guide to the series) would also be preserved.

    Again, no discussion on the guild challenges. I support the merge, specially because the pages themselves have a OoU section that should be removed anyway.

    Genetic memory already has a section on the extraction, which could easily be expanded with the other page’s content. The discussion for this one dates back to October of 2014:

    • Kainzorus Prime: Don't see why exactly we got a separate article for this, when it could be very well a part of genetic memory article.
    • Neurotoxiny: I agree, Kainzorus, having the information spread across two separate pages seems unnecessary. Perhaps the information could simply be cut and pasted under a new heading?

    Both boat articles are stubs, though the only content that is in riverboats though not in boats is the image, since the reference has disappeared without being archived, I believe. No discussion on this one either.

    Naval campaign does have a discussion, thankfully:

    • Lacrossedeamon: We should rename to Naval Campaign which is what the this portion is called in game and rewrite from that perspective.
    • Sol Pacificus: I agree. :O
    • VilkaTheWolf: Or we keep this page, removed the info thats exactly the same as The Naval Campaign and rewrite this page to be just about the fleet. Do a History section that shows the missions and battles the fleet went through through an IU perspective.
    • Sol Pacificus: I came here to revise my comment to say exactly just this. I guess technically this article can stand to be about the fleet itself from a lore-based perspective whereas "The Naval Campaign" is just a documentation of the game's text for each mission.
    • ACsenior: The Naval Campaign as a documention of the missions can be from an IU view if we add the memory categories of Rogue too it, because the missions are memories unlucked after main assassination to the end of the Seven Years War in 1763. Currently rewriting both articles as well.

    Moving on, we have the mythology merge, with discussion dating from early 2019:

    • Sadelyrate: Altar of the Twelve Gods exists in-game, is a landmark in-game, and also exists IRL. An image of the twelve gods was given in another part of the franchise. What more do we need to justify the existence of this article?
    • Jasca Ducato:' Fair enough. I wasn't aware of the Altar's existence, so I concede the article deserves a place. That being said, pre-emptively removing the deletion tag before a discussion is at least started is not how things are done. If somebody places a deletion tag on the article then they put it there for a reason; it is at least owed to them to discuss the matter at hand. Not ignore it.
    • Sadelyrate: My bad, didn't know that about the Deletion tag etiquette. But...isn't it also customary to at least take a look at the article before placing the deletion tag on it?
    • Sol Pacificus: Late to this conversation, but just to clarify, there is currently some disagreement between the deletion tag being used to mark an article for a discussion about its deletion or to mark it for speedy deletion.
    • VilkaTheWolf: Reviving this thread, [Soranin’s Note: This is a month later] I don't think the Twelve Gods page should be merged with Greek mythology, it deserves its own page.

    Do you know that expression “The only easy day was yesterday”? Yeah, keep that in mind as we jump to the next section.

    Timeline Pages

    Just two, this time.

    Page 1 Page 2 Under
    French and Indian War Seven Years' War Seven Years' War
    Granada War Reconquista Granada War

    We’ll start with the reasoning for the 7 year itch Seven Years’ War:

    • Sol Pacificus: The French and Indian War was the American theatre of the Seven Years' War. While there is enough information on the two to merit two separate articles over at Wikipedia, I would argue that there isn't for us. The Seven Years' War in the series appears almost exclusively in the form of its North American theatre save for Shay sending his fleets to support the British war effort around the world. I won't mind keeping them separate necessarily, but I would like some clarity as to which article I should link to most of the time when referring to the conflict since characters in Rogue usually refers to it as the Seven Years' War even though they are fighting in the French and Indian War theatre


    For Reconquista, you have similar reasoning:

    • Sol Pacificus: I wonder if this should be merged with Granada War since that is the only theater of the Reconquista that appears in Assassin's Creed, and we don't have much more to add to this article. The Reconquista itself spanned about 780 years.
    • Lacrossedeamon: I feel doing so might be a little premature. Yes there is currently a lot of overlap between the two articles but as you said the Reconquista lasted 780 years. I wouldn’t be surprised if it appeared in a later installment, possibly even the next one given some of the rumors.
    • Sol Pacificus: I don't really mind keeping it, but what rumors are you referring to? I haven't heard of any relating to the Reconquista
    • Lacrossedeamon: Not the the Reconquista per se. The rumors are Vikings which might not seem like it has anything to do with Reconquista at face value but it falls within the timeframe so there might be weird collectibles about the state of Europe and other Assassin or Templar branches similar to the war letter in Rogue. It could also feature Bjorn Ironside's attack on Iberia during his Mediterranean expedition. The Staff in Rebellion is also apparently the Staff of St James, although that might have been part of the el cid side story that was removes but if not, and if they bring delve into its backstory they might bring up the battle of Clavijo. All of this is speculation of course and a little bit more than a stretch but I say we should hold off a bit before we merge


    I should really finish Rebellion, huh? Anyway, on to the next category.

    Weapon Pages

    Page 1 Page 2 Page 3 Under
    Altaïr's Sword Sword of Altaïr Sword of Altaïr
    Altaïr's Swords Sword of Altaïr Altaïr's Swords
    Queen Anne's Pistol Queen Anne's Pistols Queen Anne's Pistol
    Pirate Scimitar Pirate Scimitars Pirate Scimitar (Rogue) Pirate Scimitar
    Assassin Gauntlet Hidden Blade Hidden Blade
    French Cuttoe Cuttoe Sword Cuttoe Sword (Liberation) French Cuttoe

    Starting with Altairs’ pages: the only discussion is this from 2015:

    • Crimson Knight: Why do we have this article when the relevant info is already on Sword of Altaïr?
    • Kainzorus Prime: For the same reason you have set up pages of Rogue swords, that were already in Black Flag, in your sandbox. That, and the fact these come as a pair technically makes them different. Unless people kept forging copies over the centuries.
    • Crimson Knight: Fair enough.

    Surprisingly, no discussions for the pistols have taken place.

    What’s this? Our first threeway merge? Sounds naughty. It does bring, however… precedent (gasps!)

    • Crimson Knight: As this sword shares its appearance and name with a pair of swords from AC4, should this article eventually be merged with this, or should they be kept separate? I don't really mind either way, so I thought I'd check.
    • Crook: I dunno, what's the usual course of action for a weapon that appears in multiple games? I'm tempted to say they be kept seperate tbh.
    • Crook: Well, take a look at the Syrian Sabre. The Pirate Scimitar has different stats in AC4 (well, according to my sandbox, at least; I haven't checked in-game), so that might be worth taking into account. If we do separate them, I'd recommend renaming this article to "Pirate Scimitar (Liberation)", since the AC4 one takes precedence, I think..
      ' Oh, by the way, thanks for making this article consistent to the ones I've done. I appreciate it.
    • Crook: No problem :) Yeah, I'm cool with that. I don't mind adding the "(liberation)", but is it necessary? Black Flag uses dual swords, so technically you could distinguish betwee the "Pirate Scimitar" and the "Pirate Scimitars", right?
    • Crimson Knight: I overlooked that, actually. You're right. A Youmay on both articles would suffice, I think.

    You may want to pause for a moment before moving to the next topic (the assassin gauntlet). This one has the longest discussion yet, done in three sections starting in 2015:

    • GZilla311: Personally, I don't think this should be merged. The reasoning is that this is the same reason as the Hookblade, which is basically a Hidden Blade with a secondary hook attachment. This is a Hidden Blade with a secondary grappling hook and tertiary dart launcher attachment. In summary, if we are to merge this one, we should merge Hookblade as well, and since I doubt we're merging that, then I doubt we should merge this.
    • Crimson Knight: Agreed. This article's information should probably be on Hidden Blade as well, but the separate article might as well remain.

    Thing is though, the Hookblade page is bland and doesn't add anything really that new as what's elaborated on with the Hidden Blade subsection. Just trivia pieces. In all fairness, anything relevant on Hookblade could easily be transferred to Hidden Blade and the page deleted.

    • Slate Vesper: It seems a little silly for every new iteration of the Hidden Blade to have its own page when they're all just re-inventions of the one basic tool that all Assassins utilise with some new quirk.
    • Crimson Knight: Well, that's fair. All I'm interested in is consistency. If we just combine all the articles into one, I'm fine with that. But let's see what other people think.
    • Nesty: I'd go for merging, but that's just my personal preference. [SN: Gods, I miss her]
    • Stormbeast: I am also for merging. From what I've gathered, from various websites, the "Assassin Gauntlet" is nothing new, just the name of the bracer which most Assassins have already possessed. The new feature is the rope launcher, hallucinogenic darts already being a thing.
    • Crook: Merge, as long as we're consistent about it.
    • Jasca Ducato: I am for keeping the articles separate. We have separate hookblade and Phantom Blade article after all. Perhaps the article should be renamed rope gun, since this is the newest feature to be included on a hidden blade.
    • Slate Vesper: To have that be the reasoning for keeping them seperate, when all are being proposed to be merged, is a little pointless. They're seperate for the sake of seperatism, and perhaps linkage. Given they're modifications to a base template, it'd be more understandable to merge to Hidden Blade and have their own subsection detailing them if they're truly that noteworthy.
    • Crimson Knight: Can we make a decision please? [SN: Please? This time I’m hopeful]
    • Crook: I say we merge them, but it'd mean that many of the Hidden Blade modifications that got their own pages might also have to be merged with the Hidden Blade page.
    • Nesty: Merging is clearly the most favored option, so that's the one we'll be going for.
    • Crimson Knight: I concur. Will we be merging articles like Hookblade and Poison Blade as well?
    • Crook: I think we should.
    • TheGhostSpectrum: Honestly, let's not merge this page and the other pages with the main Hidden Blade page. The reason behind it is like all the other variations of the Hidden Blade, all of them have their unique mechanics during combat or at least similar to it. Take the Hookblade for example. The Hookblade have the "Hook and run" mechanic which is unique to it. The same thing can apply to the Assassin Gauntlet with it's rope launcher and the integrated brass knuckles. We could still put some details about the Assassin Gauntlet in the Hidden Blade page. But put the combat and unique gameplay mechanics of the guantlet in it's own page.
    • Crook: I don't see why we would keep them seperate, considering a lot of information on the Hookblade page is already on the Hidden Blade page as well, essentially rendering the Hookblade page obsolete. There's no use in having two pages that tell us the same thing.

    By the way, were there any volunteers for merging all of this stuff with the Hidden Blade?.

    • TheGhostSpectrum: Not as of yet, it seems. I could start with the other pages and leaving this page for last. Should any like to volunteer, i'd be happy to oblige. So, should we merge the pages that are related to the Hidden Blade such as, the Hidden Gun, Poison Blade and other pages?
    • Crook: I don't want to be presumptious and decide by myself. I think the Hidden Gun article is fine on its own, its got more than enough content that might be out of place on the Hidden Blade Article. Poison Blade I'm a bit iffy about, so perhaps skip that one for now as well. I would merge the Hookblade, Phantom Blade and Assassin Gauntlet with the Hidden Blade article, personally..
    • TheGhostSpectrum: I have made the changes in the Hidden Blade article. Both the Hookblade and the Phantom Blade have been merged with the main article. I will proceed with the Assassin Gauntlet if there is any further opinions and changes you would like me to do.
    • Badwolf7: I agree this should be merged with the Hidden Blade page, I am of the opinion that the "Gauntlet" is merely an addapted hiddenblade bracer that the Twins have added to with the help of Alex Bell. At the start of the game it is pretty much a hidden blade with a bracer and gloved knuckle duster. when this is merged credit should go directly to Bell for his adaptions for the blade like we already have da vinci.


    In 2017, Sol revived the issue:

    • Sol Pacificus: I personally dissent from the agreement to merge the variations on the Hidden Blade to that article simply because by now, the variations are really extensive. I think really, the only argument for or against a merge is whether this article becomes too bloated, as it is standard Wikipedian practice to create new articles on a similar subject or variation of a subject once there is too much content on one page. As well, it would be consistent with the fact that we have more articles on specific enemy unit types which I personally am less sure about..
    • Zero-ELEC: Agree on most points.


    Sol had another point to make on the same day, under the section “Assassin Gauntlet [is] not a proper name for this variation”:

    • Sol Pacificus: I think this article might be incorrect. I never interpreted in the game that "Assassin gauntlet" is a proper name for this Hidden Blade modification with a rope launcher attached as this article presents. Rather, I think of it as a general term the game uses conveniently for the glove that the Frye twins wore which has a Hidden Blade, a rope launcher, and armor for the fingers. Sure, we can still say the "Assassin gauntlet" as a whole is a weapon, but I don't see in sources it being affirmed as the proper name for this variation (not like the Pivot Blade or Shock Blade or Trident Blade) which this article seems to assume. Sources like the The Essential Guide uses the term "gauntlet" in general for the glove that holds the blade, not as a name for a specific variation of the Hidden Blade itself.
    • Zero-ELEC: Yeah, I think it's self-evident that it's not meant to be a proper name for a thing, rather a descriptive term.
    • Sol Pacificus: Checking up more on sources, aside from Syndicate and its promotional material, The Essential Guide, when listing variants of Hidden Blades, doesn't name the version used in Syndicate as "Assassin Gauntlet" but always just uses the word "Rope Launcher" (alongside and in parallel to "Phantom Blade", "Pivot Blade", "Hidden Footblade", "Trident Blade" and "Shock Blade"). More precisely, "Hidden Blade gauntlets that had a blade on the underside and a Rope Lancher on top" where each specific name of a variant is bolded. The text itself, however, makes it clear "Rope Launcher" isn't the name of the variant itself, but that for convenience, Ubisoft treated the name "Rope Launcher" on the same tier anyways with the actual Hidden Blade variant only being described as Hidden Blades with a Rope Launcher. Sorry if this is confusing.


    There is no discourse on cuttoe swords, allowing us to take a breather. Finally, we reach the final section.

    Individuals Pages

    Page 1 Page 2 Under
    Grand Master of the Templar Order Templar leader Grand Master
    Mentor Assassin leader Mentor
    Pirate hunter Bounty hunter Bounty hunters
    Pirate hunter Privateer Privateers
    Tainted One Hybrid Hybrid
    Zeus Jupiter Jupiter

    Let’s jump right into it.

    There is no discussion on the merges regarding “pirate hunter” though I will say that ‘Privateer’ is a page is about the multiplayer character, not about the profession, so I’m against this merge on principle.

    Grand Master, starting in 2017:

    • Sol Pacificus: I don't think this is an actual title. :/ Yes there are leaders of the Templars, or Templar leaders, but that's just more of a description, not the name of a rank in itself
    • Sol Pacificus: "The position of Templar leader was given to any member of the Templar Order who had received leadership over a Templar Rite." Even just looking at this line, this is the exact description given to the rank of Grand Master in Assassin's Creed: The Essential Guide. It is sourced to Assassin's Creed: Encyclopedia, can someone confirm if this is true?
    • ACsenior: And most of the Templar leaders we know of are either a Grand Master or Master Templar. So there's a 50/50 chance regarding their rank should they ever be brought up again. Like Ahmet, a Templar leader until he was confirmed to be the Grand Master of the Byzantine Rite.
    • Sol Pacificus: Can you clarify what you mean, like your overall point?
    • The Wikia Editor: The thing is that not all Templar leaders were explicitly identified as Grand Master or Master Templar. Sylvester II and James Wardrop, for example, were never identified as anything other than leaders. Similarly, Basilisk was basically the de facto Grand Master of the Levantine Rite, even though he never officially held the actual title. This article, along with Assassin leader, mostly exists to fill in that gray area in which we're never told whether a leader held any other rank. All Grand Masters are leaders, but not all leaders are Grand Masters.
    • Sol Pacificus: But those are either de facto leaders, or high-ranking Templars whose official rank and title are unknown. I think that it's no different from having a list of leaders of the United States in Wikipedia, but including with it not just its presidents and vice presidents, but also all its cabinet members, all its senators, representatives, governors, etc. They're all "American leaders" of varying ranks. It might make sense as a category, but I don't think it would make sense to have an article named "American leader", which is purely descriptive. It's not an actual rank or title. The Assassin leader article itself is the product of an error stemming from past editors thinking there's a distinction between a "Grand Master of the Assassins" and the "Mentor of the Assassins".
    • The Wikia Editor: While I do agree that there is a lot of overlap and the fact that the Assassin leader article is the product of an error. But I'm not entirely sure it's as clear cut as that. I think the "American leaders" analogy is kinda flawed, because we're not talking about listing everyone whose in charge of something (which is why I didn't include the members of the Inner Sanctum, apart from Alan Rikkin, who was apparently identified as a Grand Master in the Movie Novel). We're talking about specific individuals who were explicitly identified as leading Templar Rites but whose rank is never specified beyond "leader". Not all Templar leaders were Grand Masters either. We don't know if James Wardrop's promotion to leadership, for example, also included him becoming a Master Templar.
    • Sol Pacificus: I'm concerned that all the examples are just of Templars who were effectively acting leaders of Templar Rites during interrims, which are common enough in history and generally on Wikipedia still do not have their own articles. Basilisk, for instance, was de facto leader (or acting Grand Master) only because the Templars were having extended talks about who to elect as their next Grand Master which took over a year. I'm confused over James Wardrop as I don't recall him ever being promoted to a position of leadership. In any case, if this article is just about Templars who led rites, then the name should probably be more specific because "Templar leader" correctly can refer to any Templar that led, even lower-ranking ones. At the same time, the introduction needs to be clearer about this page including de facto leaders of Rites because sources are clear that a Grand Master is defined as a leader of a Templar Rite, or the official rank for that leader.
    • Sol Pacificus: Also, if the name of "Templar leader" isn't confirmed as an actual title, this article should be tagged as having a conjectural name.


    The entire discussion on “Assassin leader” will not be transcribed here, unlike the others. Because of its sheer size. I mean, look at it. The abridged version goes thus (starting in 2014):

    • Zero-ELEC: Okay, so what's the difference between a Mentor and an Assassin leader again? Because I tried looking for some clarification in both articles but I couldn't find one. (I might have overlooked it.)
    • Crimson Knight: As I understand it, Mentor is a title bestowed upon a particularly wise Assassin leader who has passed on much of their knowledge to students. While I don't know if a Mentor outranks a Leader, they certainly receive more respect, judging from Yusuf's interactions with Ezio.


    From 2017, we get:

    • Sol Pacificus: I think that this was a mistake from a time when the ranks of the Assassins were less clear. "Assassin leader" isn't an actual rank. There's no rank with that title. Just looking at the section just above this, "Mentor" is not a special title granted to someone in lieu of their wisdom per se, it is the rank and title of an Assassin leading a branch. I think a lot of people previously got confused about "Assassin leader" being a title given it was used in reference to Al Mualim or William Miles, but this is just a description, not a rank in itself. William Miles is one of the leaders of the Assassins, hence why he is called an Assassin leader. Al Mualim's title is "the Mentor" but since the common name we know him by is just "the Mentor" in Arabic, he's commonly described as an "Assassin leader". But "Assassin leader" is not a rank nor is it a title in and of itself
    • Master Sima Yi: There is no confusion, aside from that created in the games. This article was created because Revelations convolutes the whole Mentor-leader thing. Yusuf Tazim was the leader of the Ottoman Assassins, but he was not a Mentor. Mentor is not a title granted to anyone leader a branch, as Revelations clearly specifies. As such, people who are not directly called Mentor but are stated to lead a branch, should not be stated to be a Mentor, as this is speculation.


    November 2019 we get this:

    • Sol Pacificus: After taking a look at the Templar leader page as well though, I actually have thought of one argument why these two pages should continue to exist: for the convenience of readers in having an entire list of known heads of branches regardless of their status. That, I believe is the strongest argument why we might keep these two pages.



    The Hybrid/Tainted one merge has issues. A lot of them arising from the simulation, as is:

    • Jasca Ducato: The Fate of Atlantis: Judgment of Atlantis labels Kassandra as a hybrid, which would suggest that the "Tainted Ones" are not, in fact, humans, but hybrids themselves. It seems to me that it might be appropriate to merge this article with hybrids. now
    • Lacrossedeamon: I'm actually against this change. It is still uncertain how much of the simulation was changed from Aletheia's time as Dikastes and there is a real chance that Aletheia is in fact a hybrid instead.
    • Jasca Ducato: There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest Aletheia is a hybrid - quiite the opposite infact, since all of her base-game dialogue makes clear that she was an Isu who sided with humanity. Also, to quote Aletheia herself: "What you have experienced are echoes of memories, distorted, but no less real" which suggests that, whilst certain aspects or events depicted in the simulations are manipulated (e.g. Kassandra clones and references to her actions in Elysium and Hades) the context around these events remains true.
      The fact that Kassandra is called a hybrid on multiple occasions and by multiple Isu and humans makes me certain that this is more than a simple oversight, and is perhaps an attempt to clarify something not made clear in the base game?
    • Lacrossedeamon: I disagree and think that the plot points surrounding the clones, Phanes's codices, and Elpis are evidence that Aletheia was a hybrid and that the simulation isn’t as distorted as you guess. I’m not saying we go edit her page until there is direct confirmation on that but I feel that until we also have a strict definition on how much Isu DNA is needed to be considered a hybrid and if Kassandra meets that criterium we shouldn’t reclassify her either.
    • Jasca Ducato: Aletheia states, quite clearly, that she is an Isu ("I am as Isu as you, but I will no longer be part of your exploitation"). Kassandra, on the otherhand, is referred to numerous times as a hybrid – regardless of whether either of us believe she fits the strict criteria (i.e. 50% human 50% Isu), we cannot and should not ignore that.
    • Lacrossedeamon: And Connor could say he is as Mohawk as Kanentokon and it would be a true statement even with his mixed blood. And we should not ignore that that all happens in a simulation based on Aletheia's experiences during a time where the concept of Tainted Ones hadn’t been created yet
    • Kennyannydenny: I'm fine with merging them, I thought the exact same thing whilst playing the DLC, it seems that hybrid and Tainted Ones are terms for the same type of person, only generally Isu use the term hybrid and humans say Tainted One. I did not however in any situation thought of Aletheia as an hybrid, imho she's an Isu as was confirmed several times
    • XOdeyssusx: Some theories suggest the memories could be based on that of Eve's, given how some of the Isu codices have some information in regards to that. Even so, nothing so far suggest Aletheia being a hybrid at all, imo. I would say the Tainted Ones could just be something that encompess individuals who are hybrids or individuals who have a high percentage of Isu blood in them.
    • Lacrossedeamon: Aletheia's note about being the Dikastes makes it more likely that the memories are hers, not Eve's. But the fact that she ostensibly also activated the codices left for Eve makes me think Aletheia was also a hybrid. Same with the interactions with Elpis and Aita. I think it’s possible the events of the simulation all happened to Aletheia including being cloned for a hybrid army.
    • Francesco75: In the Gates of Atlantis, Aletheia said We Isu and Fellows Precursors so she is an Isu. But for Elpis, I don't know if we can considered as a hybrid as she is taller than Kassandra after her mutation, so maybe she became totally Isu and not a hybrids as she not the mixed between two species. About the other characters of the series can we labeled all the humans who used the power of a POE or have an Eagle vision as a hybrids?
    • Lacrossedeamon: As I argued above with Connor a hybrid can identify with one side more than the other. Elpis just shows that hybrids are phenotypically more similar to Isu than regular humans, in contrast to Kassandra. Which brings me back to the original point being that I don’t think we can categorize Kassandra as a hybrid since the only source for it is a simulated experience. To categorize all that have the potential for Eagle Vision would include all humans at this point according to Black Flag. Until we have a more strict definition of a hybrid I say we not touch it.
    • Francesco75: Also Poseidon refered that her father is Pythagoras. So the memory was changed to adress specificaly to Kassandra, with her friends in the underworlds and so of her status of hybrid.


    Finally, fresh from the press, we get the Jupiter/Zeus merge:

    • VilkaTheWolf: According to Issue 26 of Assassin's Creed: The Official Collection magazine: Jupiter, Tinia, and Zeus are all the same person. Hence I propose merging the Zeus page into Jupiter. He is already identified as Tinia on the Jupiter page, now just to add Zeus to it.
    • Lacrossedeamon: I’m kinda torn on this issue. While I’m a big proponent of the concept of singular Isu being the basis for multiple deities across and even within given pantheons I’m loath to rely on the magazine because they at times have weird interpretations of canon. However at the end of the day they are a source of canon and thus I must support this motion.
    • Sol Pacificus: I noticed on Discord that some of you guys seem to think that Jupiter being identified with Zeus is somehow lore-breaking. Is this related to Fate of Atlantis? Because otherwise, I don't see what is the issue besides personal preference for them to be separate individuals. Also, for future reference, when opening a proposal for a merge, please add the corresponding template to the top of the article.
    • Sadelyrate: Afaic, the Isu best known as Jupiter should not be conflated with the Greek god known as Zeus. Even if Zeus was based on said Isu, we’d need to draw the line somewhere between what each of them did. Did the Isu go and romance multiple women (and some men) by changing his shape into a bull, a swan, a fricking golden shower and whatever else? Was the Isu married to Juno, who haunted his extramarital companions more often than not? And how about Persephone? Was she kidnapped by Hades, forced to remain in his realm after eating six pomegranate seeds? Did Poseidon have a grudge against Ajax the Lesser? And so forth, and so on.
    • Lacrossedeamon: But the name Zeus is also applied to an Isu which according to the magazine is the same Isu as Jupiter. Any depiction of Zeus, Jupiter, or Tinia in mythology would just be its own section of the article like Legacy.
    • VilkaTheWolf: Yeah just all that stuff will be put under a "Mythology" header. See the Minerva page .


    Final remarks

    I’ll define some notation here to see if it helps in the end. Let Y mean agreement with the merge and X mean disagreement. A will mean ambivalence, W would mean waiting and O will mean another option, not contained by the ones mentioned before. For example, my proposal of turning “Games and Media” into ACSeries’ gallery would be an O. Here is an empty table with space for you guys to vote, using this notation. :) [You can also find it in my Sandbox)

    Merge Vote
    Category:Louisiana
    Category:Documents
    Category: Massachusetts
    Levant
    Sanctuary of Kosmos
    Assassin's Creed (series)
    Guild challenges
    Genetic memory
    Boat
    The Naval Campaign
    Greek mythology
    Seven Years' War
    Granada War
    Sword of Altaïr
    Queen Anne's Pistol
    Pirate Scimitar
    Hidden Blade
    French Cuttoe
    Grand Master
    Mentor
    Bounty hunters
    Privateers
    Hybrid
    Jupiter


    UPDATE

    As requested by Lacrossedeamon, the merge of Victor and Hugo, under "Victor and Hugo". The disussion went as follow:

    • Lacrossedeamon: Do he and his brother get mentioned in the employee handbook Unity tie in novel? I feel I remember someone saying that it gets explained that they were mostly created by the Animus itself and not who Arno actually interacted with.
    • Soranin: They do get mentioned, in an email from Aiden St. Claire to Robert Fraser (bear with me cause this is a retranslation into english):

    "Do you truly believe that "Victor" and "Hugo" were amalgams of many people, rather than two real and distinct individuals? Now that you mention it, it is strange that he continues to cross paths with these two."

    Hope to have helped.

    • Lacrossedeamon: Yeah that’s exactly what I was looking for. Now the question is how to incorporate it into the articles; maybe we merge the two and go from there?
    • Soranin: I don't know, it feels a bit flimsy? It is the feeling of a person who was suffering quite a lot from the bleeding effect. I would put it under trivia, but maybe we should wait for other editors to weigh in.
    • Lacrossedeamon: Technically we are moving away from permanent trivia sections. OOU info such as the brothers being named after the French novelist would be in a "Behind the scenes" sections while IU info like the possibility of them being an amalgam created by the Animus might be temporarily put in a trivia section until we found a way to incorporate it in the main article. But agreed on letting others have a say and offer suggestions.
      Loading editor
    • Okay wow this is long and I’m definitely don’t have opinions on all of them but I’ll run through the ones I do (maybe I’ll add more later after some review and reflection.

      • louisiana/New Orleans - abstain
      • Massachusetts/Boston - abstain
      • historical documents/document collections - counterproposal historical documents renamed documents with document collections a subcategory within that
      • syria/Levant - Levant
      • sanctuary of Kosmos/cave of Gaia - even though I contributed to this discussion I’m ambivalent so abstain for the moment
      • games and media/series - I really like your proposal of make the former the gallery page of the latter
      • guild challenges bro/rev - guild challenges
      • memory extraction/genetic memory - abstain
      • riverboats/boats - boats
      • twelve gods/Greek mythology - keep separate but I suggest renaming twelve gods to Greek pantheon so as to encompass titans, lesser deities, beings like nymphs, etc
      • shay's fleet/naval campaign/French Indian war/seven year's war - I put these all on the same bullet because I see a lot of overlap; naval campaign should be formatted to annotate how the information is presented through the Animus; Shay’s fleet deleted; French Indian war should be a section of the seven year's war with another section covering other theaters drawing from the informations presented in the naval campaign but in a summarized flowing format
      • granada war/Reconquista - keep separate
      • weapon pages - these are sticky ones because we need to decide whether they were actual tangible weapons and then the exact same weapons or just mods; Altair’s Swords might be able to go into the original page under legacy as mods being provided by Abstergo; the others I believe are separate weapons which should be kept separate (unless we go with my radical proposal that we treat all weapons including their stats as animus generated models but that’s a discussion for another day; Hidden Blade I abstain as long we are consistent with all the variants and attachments
      • leader pages - keep separate especially with how we are now treating former proto individuals
      • pirate hunter/privateer - privateer (should be singular right?)
      • hybrid/Tainted one - keep separate
      • zeus/Jupiter - Jupiter

      Alright that should do it for now unless I actually go review the ones I abstained on and come to a decision.

        Loading editor
    • Merge Vote
      Category:Louisiana Y
      Category:Documents O
      Category: Massachusetts Y
      Levant X
      Sanctuary of Kosmos Y
      Assassin's Creed (series) Y
      Guild challenges Y
      Genetic memory X
      Boat X
      The Naval Campaign X
      Greek mythology X
      Seven Years' War A
      Granada War A
      Sword of Altaïr Y
      Queen Anne's Pistol Y
      Pirate Scimitar Y
      Hidden Blade X
      French Cuttoe Y
      Grand Master A
      Mentor A
      Bounty hunters Y
      Privateers Y
      Hybrid Y
      Jupiter Y

      Category:Documents to Category:Document collections. My abstained votes, I don't really know enough about to comment on the subjects.

        Loading editor
    • I haven't had the time to look through all of these yet. I will organize my votes in a table later, but there were a few corrections I couldn't help but get out right away.

      For the weapon pages, we already decided upon a comprehensive guideline on organizing weapon articles years ago and the matter has already long been settled. Two weapons which are actually entirely identical in appearance are essentially one weapon which appears in more than one game, just as one character or location may appear in more than one game. They should always be merged, and many weapon pages have already been merged under this policy. On the other hand, two weapons which happen to share the same name but are clearly different warrant two separate pages. Hence, we merged the Scimitar of Assassin's Creed II with the Persian Shamshir of Revelations, but did not merge Persian Scimitars into them. What we see here with the multiple pages of the Sword of Altaïr and Pirate Scimitars are just those poor pages we completely forgot about. Unless we were to change our policy on weapon pages and have to do another massive overhaul of the way all of them are organized, we have to follow through with these leftover pages. Merge where two weapons are definitely the same weapon model; keep separate where they share the same or similar name but are not the same.

      Whether or not a weapon happens to be an Animus mod is a moot question because even if say Altaïr's Swords in Black Flag were an Animus mod (and it probably is), it doesn't mean that it needs its own page. It could simply be mentioned somewhere in the article on the real Sword of Altaïr that there were Animus sessions which included the swords as mods.

      The other correction is that an Animi avatar page is rarely, if ever, a primary topic for a term. A primary topic is the subject that people would be looking for the vast majority of the time when entering a search item which would give multiple results. Also, article titles should almost always be in singular with few exceptions, and pluralization for the sole sake of disambiguating between two articles sharing the same name is wrong. This means that the article on "privateer" should be about actual privateers, not a multiplayer character with that epithet unless you guys really argue that the multiplayer character is the primary topic (i.e. most people who type "privateer" would be looking for it). Since Liberation multiplayer is defunct, I doubt this though. This correction aside, maybe a case can be made that pirate hunters and privateers aren't necessarily the same, and that would be the reason to keep them separate, but I'm not sure about that. I guess technically not every pirate hunter may have a letter of marque from a government legally sanctioning their pirate hunting?

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    • City category

      I think that whether or not we keep categories for New Orleans and Boston depends on if we also have categories for other major cities in Assassin's Creed games like Florence, Venice, Rome, Paris, Athens, Alexandria, etc. We seem to have such categories for cities from older games but not for the latest games.

      Document category

      "Document collections" sound awkward, and "historical documents" sounds like someone had intended the category to be for documents which exist or existed in the real-world and hence OOU. Both really should be merged and simplified into "documents".

      Cave of Gaia

      I was confused about the whole Cave of Gaia thing even when I first encountered it in the game, but whether the Sanctuary of Kosmos is situated within or near the Cave of Gaia, it sounds like the Cave of Gaia would be the geographical feature distinct from the Sanctuary, which is kind of a man-made place (or concept of a place).

      Games and media

      I feel like I've brought this up somewhere, but 'Assassin's Creed (series) is actually supposed to be a fully-developed article explaining the franchise, including its development, evolution, and significance, just like Wookieepedia has an article on Star Wars, the Harry Potter wiki has an article on Harry Potter, and the Elder Scrolls wiki has an article on The Elder Scrolls. This page isn't supposed to be just a list of all Assassin's Creed works. That leaves the "games and media" page, which would be a convenient page listing all those works and nothing but.

      Guild challenges

      It can go either way. We can have them separate or under one article. It only depends on which is better for organization and accessibility. I personally think all guild challenge pages can be consolidated into one page.

      Memory extraction

      We really don't need this article. Its content can be merged into both genetic memory and the Animus.

      Boat

      Yeah there's no reason to have an article on riverboats. Based on its source, the page clearly seems to have been created in anticipation that riverboats would play a significant role in Assassin's Creed: Syndicate prior to its release, and then the article was forgotten about. Our article on boat would be small enough as it is even if it were fully expanded on.

      Shay Cormac's fleet

      As I have mentioned on its talk page, technically-speaking, the Naval Campaign would be a page documenting the missions and their briefings whereas an article on Shay Cormac's fleet should actually be about his fleet from a lore perspective if we were to keep it. Of course "Shay Cormac's fleet" must have originally been intended as such a document page, and I would surmise that the author thought using the gameplay name for it would be awkward from an in-universe standpoint.  As for whether or not we should keep "Shay Cormac's fleet" at all, I am leaning towards "yes" because I always got the impression from how involved it apparently was in the Seven Years' War according to Rogue that it was actually significant.

      Twelve Olympians

      The Twelve Gods page was originally intended to be named "Twelve Olympians", the proper name for this group of deities which certainly would give it more weight. However,  I think we found that the name "Olympian" prior to Odyssey had never actually appeared, and there was some debate about how it would be conjectural to use the name "Olympian" rather than "Twelve Gods". I don't remember the debate well, but I think that context shouldn't be missed. Otherwise, whether or not it should be merged into Greek mythology depends on how significant the Twelve Olympians as a group are and whether the Greek mythology page would be overloaded with information. I think the Greek mythology page certainly would be quite long when fully completed, and the Twelve Olympians is a significant enough group that a separate page on them wouldn't hurt. Just rename them to Twelve Olympians.

      Seven Years' War

      My position has already been quoted above. I think that it is confusing both from an editing and an organizational standpoint to have pages on both Seven Years' War and French and Indian War. In the real-world, there is so much information that a separate page for the American theatre is warranted, but in Assassin's Creed, the two are entirely synonymous. Since Seven Years' War is more inclusive, less restrictive, and the more commonly used name in Rogue, the merged page should be under that name.

      Reconquista

      I actually forgot about proposing this merge, and I take it back.

        Loading editor
    • Merge Vote
      Category:Louisiana Y
      Category:Documents Y
      Category: Massachusetts Y
      Levant Y
      Sanctuary of Kosmos Y
      Assassin's Creed (series)
      Guild challenges Y
      Genetic memory Y
      Boat Y
      The Naval Campaign
      Greek mythology Y
      Seven Years' War Y
      Granada War W
      Sword of Altaïr Y
      Queen Anne's Pistol Y
      Pirate Scimitar Y
      Hidden Blade X
      French Cuttoe Y
      Grand Master X
      Mentor X
      Bounty hunters A
      Privateers X
      Hybrid Y
      Jupiter X

      Cris' observations:

      • I agree with the merging the Memory Extraction with Genetic Memory. Because it answers to the question "How they obtain this?, How is it extracted?", and such answer should be in the article itself instead of having its own, it's more "friendly-user" that way IMO.
      • The Assassin Gauntlet page shouldn't be merge. The Hidden Blade article lists all the modifications available, but techniques, combat and stuff applied with such modification should be detailed in their own article.
      • I understand that Assassin leaders were the "boss" of a certain little group inside a specific Brotherhood, and the Mentor was the ultimate boss. Same with the Templars. According to this, I don't think they should be merged, both are bosses but within the hierarchy, they are very different. And merging them with the Master Assassin article is also troublesome because we don't know which of them got said rank. We should wait and leave it as it is. One thing I'd do, tho, is remove Bayek from the "Egyptian Brotherhood" section and create a new one called: Egyptian Branch of the Hidden Ones, and put Bayek there. Same with Amunet but in another section: Roman Branch of the Hidden Ones.
      • About the bounty hunters and pirate hunters. Idk. I thought the former were paid by the Crown in Rogue, and the latter were pirate hunters searching for other weak pirates without representing any kind of goverment but their own. I'm not sure abou this.
      • About the privateers, I'll have to say no to this one. The avatar's page describes all the stuff you can do with it in the multiplayer, the other is an article describing what they did in history, two very different things.
      • The thing creating trouble is what we know about "Zeus" in Fate of Atlantis. The proof we have that indicates they are two different individuals is that Jupiter is mentioned in the DLC by his other name: Tinia and Zeus is called as such in the Isu codex titled "A Tale of Brothers". In this one, the Archivist talks about Zeus and how much he was hated by his brothers. It's also mentioned that while Poseidon was in charge, he activated the mechanisms to start a new cycle (sink the city and rise it again) just to eliminate Zeus' smell after his visit. The hate is palpable. If Poseidon hated Zeus so much, he wouldn't allow him to have his own chamber (Tinia's archive) in the city until the last cycle that would destroy Atlantis.
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    • Sol Pacificus wrote:

      Cave of Gaia

      -Cave of Gaia would be the geographical feature distinct from the Sanctuary, which is kind of a man-made place (or concept of a place).

      If by 'Sanctuary' you're referring to the Sanctuary of Kosmos, that is very much a natural cavern which has merely been modified. If to the Sanctuary of Delphi... that's the whole locale.

      Sol Pacificus wrote:

      Twelve Olympians

      -Just rename them to Twelve Olympians.

      'Olympian' appears in ACOd, though usually used of people who participated in the Olympic Games. But does the term 'Twelve Olympians'? Because 'Twelve Gods' does, in fact, appear in ACOd. Other than that, I agree with Sol on keeping the dodecatheon as separate article from Greek mythology, given their significance.

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    • Except for a handful of candidates, I'm in support of all the proposed merges. My own notes are as follows, but in the end, I'll side with Sol for any disputes.

      Naval Campaign

      If we're to differentiate between the gameplay mechanic and the actions of Shay's fleet in the Seven Years' War, shouldn't we do the same for Edward's fleet in the Golden Age of Piracy? I don't have AC4, so I don't know.

      Reconquista

      I agree with Lacrosse: hold off on merging it for now until we get info from Valhalla, if any. Otherwise, I vote "yes".

      Mentor / Grand Master

      I feel "X leader" is too generic a title to keep. As has roughly already been said, Mentors / Grand Masters are leaders, but not all leaders are Mentors / Grand Masters. I vote "yes".

      Privateer / Hunters

      Like Sol, I think "privateer" should be about the actual position not the Animi Avatar, which should have its own page like the other Avatars do. I disagree that pirate hunters are separate from privateers for the exact reason Sol said, that not every hunter would have to own Letters of Marque. Surely there were opportunistic kills of "regular" pirates without official support.

      Jupiter

      Overall, I vote "yes". The only thing I can think of to reconcile the name confusion is that Poseidon cooled his temper a long while after sinking Atlantis to clean it of Zeus germs and chose to dedicate a room to Jupiter, who (for some reason??) returned to using his old Etruscan name. However, it seems out-of-character given millennia of bad blood.

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    • Merge Vote
      Category:Louisiana Y
      Category:Documents Y
      Category: Massachusetts Y
      Levant Y
      Sanctuary of Kosmos Y
      Assassin's Creed (series)
      Guild challenges Y
      Genetic memory Y
      Boat Y
      The Naval Campaign X
      Greek mythology X
      Seven Years' War Y
      Granada War A
      Sword of Altaïr Y
      Queen Anne's Pistol Y
      Pirate Scimitar Y
      Hidden Blade A
      French Cuttoe Y
      Grand Master Y
      Mentor Y
      Bounty hunters Y
      Privateers Y
      Hybrid X
      Jupiter Y

      Grand Master: i`m still for the merge but under curtain terms for any de facto, interrim and other positions for individuals that is not confirmed as either Grand Master or Master Templar that are clarified as being in an acting position as a leader of some kind in their own respective Rite were the Grand Master should be in charge, according to their own organizational structure that has the Grand Master as the leading position. There`s no need for us to invent a non-extisting rank for acting positions.

      Naval Campaign: This wiki have made a clear distinction between gameplay and History of whatever and we should continue being consistent with that.

        Loading editor
    • Weapon pages

      Per the policy I have already explained above, all instances of "Altaïr's Swords" should be merged into "Sword of Altaïr". "Queen Anne's Pistols" should be merged into "Queen Anne's Pistol". Both versions of "Pirate Scimitars" should be merged into "Pirate Scimitar".

      After taking a closer look at "Assassin Gauntlet", I think the issue that remains with the page is that it is misdefined. Currently, the article defines it as necessarily being a bracer with a Hidden Blade and a rope launcher. Since we apparently do not have an article on rope launcher, it appears that the authors of this article took it to be a substitute for "rope launcher". Before, I probably thought that Assassin Gauntlet should be deleted for "rope launcher", but after noticing the chart of various gauntlets, I realize now it is a significant and distinct piece of equipment in its own right in the game which we need to document. In other words, "Assassin Gauntlet" should be kept, but it needs to be corrected to "Assassin gauntlet" because it is a general noun, it needs to be rewritten with the correct definition, and a separate page needs to be created for "rope launcher".

      Per policy, "Cuttoe Sword (Assassin's Creed III)" and "Cuttoe Sword (Liberation)" should be merged together because they appear to be the same model of sword, "French Cuttoe" should remain a separate page because it's clearly a different model, and "Cuttoe sword" should be a general page on cuttoe swords.

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    • Assassin leader & Templar leader

      Assassin leader and Templar leader should just be deleted. There is too much overlap with "Mentor" and "Grand Master of the Templar Order" respectively. There were two main arguments for these two pages, paraphrased below:

      1. 'We need a page encompassing both official Grand Masters and people who had their position but not the official rank, the main example being Basilisk.'

      As ACSenior pointed out, we don't need a separate page just for an acting position. In the real-world, "acting presidents", interim leaders, or rulers who died before their coronation or inauguration are always just included with the list of presidents, kings, etc. Having a page which repeats the exact same information save for adding a few extra individuals who were interim leaders is just a redundancy and poor organization

      2. 'Not all branch leaders are Mentors or Grand Masters; this page was created for those branch leaders who did not hold that rank, the main example being Yusuf Tazim.'

      This was the original rationale for these pages as reported by Sima Yi. They date to a time when the ranks of Mentor and Grand Master were not clearly defined as being branch leaders. Unfortunately, The Essential Guide has since defined these ranks to correspond 1:1 to the position of branch leaders. There is controversy about whether or not this is a retcon and whether or not this contradicts the lore that is presented in Revelations. Because of this confusion, Sima had suggested to me before that we could instead rename the pages to "Assassin branch leader" and "Templar branch leader" for clarity.

      However, I should point out that it does not seem like everyone who has added individuals to these pages treat it as referring to branch leaders specifically. We have William Miles and Gavin Banks on there. While they are Assassin leaders in that they are Assassins who lead, they are not heads of specific regional branches. We have also added the heads of the various branches of the Order of the Ancients in Persia from Legacy of the Lost Blade, but it is not clear if we should relate those to the same exact position as "Templar regional branch/Rite leader".

      In other words, the two pages are being used as general pools for any Assassin or Templar who lead or is in a leadership position. This signals two things. First that "Assassin leader" and "Templar leader" are purely descriptive terms whether we like it or not. They are not the names of positions; they are general nouns formed by "leader" and a descriptor. And second, we lack clarity on what position they really define if we were to treat them as actual positions.

      In any case, the overriding issue is that we can be influencing canonical lore or confusing our readers (certainly this has and still remains confusing to me) by presenting these as real ranks. We definitely have seen editors who were influenced by the existence of these pages into treating them as real ranks even when they give tacit acknowledgement about the terms being conjectural or descriptive (i.e. not actual names) or that the concept is our own original creation out of sheer convenience.

      I do not think that "Assassin leader" and "Templar leader" should remain at all, and if they remain, they must be renamed, and the content they cover clarified. The only real reason for them to exist is to serve as a general gallery for all Assassins and Templars in leadership positions regardless of rank across all Assassin's Creed media for the convenience of fans. Currently, however, there is extreme redundancy between these pages and "Mentors" and "Grand Master".

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    • Other individual pages

      I'm open about whether or not we should enact merges between "pirate hunter", "bounty hunter", and "privateer". Aside from "privateers" not being an acceptable way of disambiguating it from the Animi avatar, and the primary topic being at the profession, I would like to hear more arguments about whether these should be merged or kept separate. I am thinking bounty hunter probably should remain separate, but I'm more divided in terms of merging pirate hunter and privateer per my arguments in my initial comment on this thread.

      Tainted One vs. Hybrid; Zeus vs. Jupiter

      I will have to abstain from both of these because I have not played Fate of the Atlantis so I am not familiar enough with the lore to understand the context behind the debates you guys have had on this. It sounds like you guys all have some interesting arguments though. :) I cannot in good conscience vote without having explored this myself.

        Loading editor
    • Merge Vote
      Category:Louisiana Y
      Category:Documents Y
      Category: Massachusetts Y
      Levant Y
      Sanctuary of Kosmos A
      Assassin's Creed (series) O
      Guild challenges Y
      Genetic memory Y
      Boat Y
      The Naval Campaign W
      Greek mythology X
      Seven Years' War Y
      Granada War X
      Sword of Altaïr Y
      Queen Anne's Pistol Y
      Pirate Scimitar Y
      Hidden Blade X
      French Cuttoe O
      Grand Master Y
      Mentor Y
      Bounty hunters X
      Privateers Y
      Hybrid A
      Jupiter A
        Loading editor
    • What does the magazine (which came out before Odyssey) actually say about Jupiter and Zeus?

        Loading editor
    • Creepy Jupiter figure from magazine

      Box in the lower left portion

        Loading editor
    • Thanks. Interesting wording!

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    • Jupiter ”was associated with”? That is a curious way to word it.

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    • Sadelyrate wrote:
      Jupiter ”was associated with”? That is a curious way to word it.

      Indeed, it's like:

      • Humans: Hey, there's a guy known as Zeus who throws lightining bolts from his hands. It should be this guy (points Jupiter wielding a laser gun)
      • Actual Isu Zeus: Am I a joke to you?
        Loading editor
    • Read "associated with" as "basis for"

        Loading editor
    • "Together then."

      To start with, hi, I've been a bit absent these past few days, IRL things have kept me a bit busy, sorry about that!

      For the Category merges, the first one (→ Category:Louisiana), I do have a couple of questions: do we have a defined policy on location categories? What do we normally do for states/provinces/territories within countries? What sort of granularity do we want?

      For the second one (→ Category:Documents) seems fairly clean cut as a yeah, why not.

      The third one (→ Category: Massachusetts) raises similar questions as the first. I abstain from voicing a direct opinion on these, especially without checking up directly what is in these categories.

      Now, going to locations, I again think the first one (→ Levant), is fairly clear cut that as of right now, Syria has not appeared properly in Assassin's Creed and the Levant is not exactly Syria, and as such, the Syria page is mostly useless, and should be merged or deleted.

      For the second one, (→ Sanctuary of Kosmos) an argument could be made that the Sanctuary is within the Cave of Gaia, though having what would amount to identical articles about a cave and a room within the cave is... a bit too much. So yeah, merge should happen.

      Now for the "Other" pages~

      For the first one (→ Assassin's Creed (series)), I would be remiss to not mention that I've spent... some time fixing up the Games and Media page and would be slightly saddened to see it disappear. Having said that, it is perfectly logical to merge these two, whether the template established in Games and Media gets ported to a gallery page or not, Games and Media as it currently is is redundant.

      The → Guild challenges merge, I think, is not so clear cut. I think that if we were to merge the Guild challenges we should also merge the Club challenges from ACIII, as they serve what amounts to the same function and idea: minor memories that allow for further sync related to local unions that an Assassin used to prove themselves. So yes, merge, but only if Club challenges get included.

      → Genetic memory is, again, fairly easy to say yes to; it is a factor in Genetic memory, which we have a more focused article on.

      Riverboats are boats, so yea merge → Boat.

      I am unclear as to what the Naval Campaign exactly is. Wouldn't it be something like "Templar Naval Campaign"? "The Naval Campaign", while the official name, sounds an awful lot like a descriptor. Mark me down as ambivalent as far as → The Naval Campaign

      A clear cut nay? Yay! Or, uh, Nay! I think this is a definite no, as far as → Greek mythology, the twelve olympians/gods are a part of Greek myth, but deserving of its own article, especially since Odyssey implied certain things about them (the Throne Room at the edge of Atlantis having the twelve seats with symbols for each god, for example.)

      Completely agree with Sol's original comments, in regards to the → Seven Years' War and → Granada War. And, even if, as pointed by Lacrossedeamon, there are references to the Reconquista, we can add those after we've confirmation of them. Meanwhile the page should be merged.

      Oof, weapons now; alright, we know we combine weapons that are the same across multiple games... but do we know that the → Sword of Altaïr is the same as "Altaïr's Sword", the blade used by Shay, or the two "Altaïr's Swords" wielded by Edward? They don't use the same name as every other appearance, there's multiple of them (one of them has a knife!)... It just feels like we can't exactly confirm if they're... well, the same.

      Meanwhile → Queen Anne's Pistol and Queen Anne's Pistols certainly look identical and are meant to be "mass" consumer items, so even though there's two of them in one iteration, it makes sense.

      Similarly, → Pirate Scimitar are generic blades of which it is reasonable to assume many were made.

      Still agree with the → Hidden Blade merge.

      I do not agree with the → French Cuttoe merge, as they are quite simply not the same swords. Even if they're all cuttoes, they're called diferently and have distinct visuals: ACIII "Cuttoe Sword" has the curving guard of American cuttoes in a steely gray, while Liberation "Cuttoe Sword", while named the same, has a shorter guard with a golden finish and more brown hilt wrapping. Meanwhile the the "French cuttoe" from Rogue has a completely different design having a curved blade, a prominent curved cross-guard and rain guard, both with cross engravings and what appear to be gems engraved in the hilt itself, all tapering in a curved pommel.

      Now, onto the → Mentor and → Grandmaster merges... I decidedly believe that they don't need to be merged, rather at best the non-merging pages renamed to clarify that Templar leader and Assassin leader aren't... titles unlike Grand Master and Mentor.

      As for the → Hybrid merge... I believe that the whole thing is a gross mischaracterisation of what a "Hybrid" is. Yes, I believe they should be merged, though under what name I am unsure. I do believe, tho, that "Hyrbids" and "Tainted Ones" are meant to just be what we used to call "Assassins", as in the "Children of Two Worlds". I believe these are just different terms for the same type of person: a Human with Isu ancestry. While I do believe these should be merged, I also believe this should be clarified.

      And finally, as much as it pains me to use The Official Collection as a source, it is officially licensed and as such Tinia / Zeus / → Jupiter are the same Isu. What this means for the plot of Fate of Atlantis, given that Poseidon claims Zeus is his brother... who is Tinia/Jupiter, who then went on to work with Juno... ugh.

      → Privateer makes no sense.

      That's... that's it! That took too long.

      Merge Vote
      Category:Louisiana W
      Category:Documents Y
      Category: Massachusetts W
      Levant Y
      Sanctuary of Kosmos Y
      Assassin's Creed (series) O
      Guild challenges O
      Genetic memory Y
      Boat Y
      The Naval Campaign A
      Greek mythology X
      Seven Years' War Y
      Granada War Y
      Sword of Altaïr X
      Queen Anne's Pistol Y
      Pirate Scimitar Y
      Hidden Blade Y
      French Cuttoe X
      Grand Master O
      Mentor O
      Bounty hunters Y
      Privateers X
      Hybrid O
      Jupiter Y
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    • Earlier I refrained from voting on the Sanctuary of Kosmos/Cave of Gaia but I think it would make sense to merge them under Cave of Gaia as it would be the larger structure that includes the Sanctuary of Kosmos.

      Also if we are merging Guild Challenges across there different iterations should we do the same thing with Contracts?

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    • Grand Master: Currently reread both the Unity(novel) and Forsaken, and if anything. The Grand Master page seems to be out of date as there isnt a Pratices section that explains how(Training, Leadership, Power) the position of the Grand Master actually works within the Templar Order. Simply updating it with that information along with the additionall information in regards of acting leaders, then we can delete the Templar leader page and simply awknowlege any acting leader in the page itself like a normal wiki without invented ranks for acting leaders. I`ve already started writing it and would be ready to update regardless of the decision made, since it is useful information.

      Naval Campaign: In universe these were minor memomires that happen along with the main memories from the  assassination in 1756 to the end of the war after the confrontation in the Artic Temple. It`s no diffrent than Ezio`s Medditerian Defernce in Revelations, aside from there being a chronological timeline to when the memories happened.

      Shay Cormac`s fleet is an organization within the British Empire founded in 1756 that supported other Rites and expanded the British Empire and by extension, templar control. A more interesting debate than the current one that conflates memories and history as the same, is if Shay`s fleet could rewritten as a Colonial Templar fleet(s) page by merging the information from it with the history of Biddle`s control of sea during the American Revolution. Because they don`t appear to be same fleet in terms of influene and manpower, unless Biddle was part of Shay`s fleet.

      Hybrids: Should there be a merge without regards to persentage of Isu DNA, despite persentage being relevant in cases of Cyphers and Sages. Where does they fit into it? Isn`t it an extension of chosen idividuals by the Isu that`s special for their Isu DNA?

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    • Zero-ELEC wrote:

      Oof, weapons now; alright, we know we combine weapons that are the same across multiple games... but do we know that the → Sword of Altaïr is the same as "Altaïr's Sword", the blade used by Shay, or the two "Altaïr's Swords" wielded by Edward? They don't use the same name as every other appearance, there's multiple of them (one of them has a knife!)... It just feels like we can't exactly confirm if they're... well, the same.

      Actually, maybe this was what Lacrosse was referring to earlier. I had only been thinking about how if Shay and Edward's Swords of Altaïr were mods, we won't need separate pages for them. However, you're right that if, on the other hand, they were actual swords that they had in their possession, then the matter changes because unlike Queen Anne's pistol, the Sword of Altaïr isn't a mass produced model; it's one, single, unique sword of which only one exists in the world. The Sword of Altaïr would be different from swords modeled off of the Sword of Altaïr. I think this might have been why I hesitated merging them all those years back, but I had forgotten the reason. Thanks for bringing this important detail up.

      I think if we are really unsure, the side of caution would be to merge them for the sake of cleaner organization. It's probably less confusing for our readers if we don't have multiple pages of Altaïr's Sword floating around. We can explain in the behind-the-scenes section that their appearance in Black Flag and Rogue might be Animus mods. But I would feel most at ease if one of us could maybe contact Ubisoft and ask about it. Hopefully, it's a simple enough question that they won't dodge it.

      ACIII "Cuttoe Sword" has the curving guard of American cuttoes in a steely gray, while Liberation "Cuttoe Sword", while named the same, has a shorter guard with a golden finish and more brown hilt wrapping.

      I hesitated to merge the AC3 Cuttoe Sword with the Liberation Cuttoe Sword before because I couldn't tell from the images whether or not they're the same "model" of cuttoe sword. Yes, the hilts are different colors, but in real-life, weapons of identical design, model, and make can be different colors as with anything else. It could just be the hilt wrappings that are different but that won't change the design of the sword being the same. I can't confidently tell if the hilt of the Liberation one actually is shorter because it could just be the angle.

      → Privateer makes no sense.

      What about privateer doesn't make sense? I don't understand what this means at all. o.O"

      By the way, I don't want anyone to feel intimidated by my strong stance on "Assassin leader" and "Templar leader" pages being deleted or merged into "Mentor" and "Grand Master of the Templar Order". If you guys really wish to keep it, that is okay with me, as long as we really look into rewriting them and making them distinct from the latter two pages.

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    • Update: I just realized that I had apparently merged "cuttoe" with hanger sword before because what little I could find on cuttoes online said that it's an alternative name for the hanger sword or a variant of it. [1] [2] On the other hand, Hanger (sword) in Wikipedia redirects to cutlass. Cutlass and hanger sword are separate articles on our wiki; I would prefer to keep it that way unless we are really sure they can be considered the same type of sword, but I'm wondering if we should also separate cuttoe from hanger sword.

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    • Sol Pacificus wrote:What about privateer doesn't make sense? I don't understand what this means at all. o.O"

      Sorry, that was unclear of me, what I meant was: we don't currently have a page for Privateers at all. The only Privateer page we have is the one of the Animus avatar. Merging those pages seems senseless. Now if the question were, "should we rename 'Pirate hunter' to 'Privateer'", that's a different conversation all together, I think. Pirate hunters might have been privateers, as per Database: Pirates, Buccaneers, and Privateers privateers often raided and robbed in the name of a king/government, and pirate hunters tended to have official approvals, like Benjamin Hornigold, but the hunters were never named as such in the game, were they?

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    • Bump for the new inclusion of Victor and Hugo. The body of each article is basically the same and I think the modern day speculation is enough reason to almost treat them as a single entity. I'd also like to point out their is precedence on Wikipedia for the convention with examples being Cain and Abel or Castor and Pollux which incidentally is also how we do it on our site.

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    • Zero-ELEC wrote:

      Sorry, that was unclear of me, what I meant was: we don't currently have a page for Privateers at all. The only Privateer page we have is the one of the Animus avatar. Merging those pages seems senseless. Now if the question were, "should we rename 'Pirate hunter' to 'Privateer'", that's a different conversation all together, I think. Pirate hunters might have been privateers, as per Database: Pirates, Buccaneers, and Privateers privateers often raided and robbed in the name of a king/government, and pirate hunters tended to have official approvals, like Benjamin Hornigold, but the hunters were never named as such in the game, were they?

      Yes, I'm just noticed that yesterday as well, and being the one to put up the merge template, I'm not sure what happened there as well. I also had definitely not meant for the merged page to be the plural "privateers". However, the term privateer does appear at least once somewhere, such as in Database: Pirates, Buccaneers, and Privateers. Even so, I would be opposed to the merge now.

      Lacrossedeamon wrote: Bump for the new inclusion of Victor and Hugo. The body of each article is basically the same and I think the modern day speculation is enough reason to almost treat them as a single entity. I'd also like to point out their is precedence on Wikipedia for the convention with examples being Cain and Abel or Castor and Pollux which incidentally is also how we do it on our site.

      The evidence provided in the e-mail between Robert Fraser and Aidan St. Claire is "too flimsy" as Sadel said. It is a really nice, subtle suggestion we can draw an inference from, but it is no explicit statement of fact, and to merge the two pages on the supposition of characters that the two are not actual individuals would be to act based on speculation. After all, we'd essentially be speculating from the speculations of characters.

      Supposing that they are actual individuals, the two pages should not be merged because they are separate individuals. Wikipedia practice is different in regards to pairs of individuals because it deals with the real-world which has so much information that it organizes subjects into articles differently. For example, Cain and Abel are grouped together because from a real-world perspective, the myth of the two is the significant subject, less so either of them as independent, separate individuals. In many cases, articles on a murder victim had been merged into the article on the murder of that victim, so the standard isn't to have an article on every individual ever known or mentioned.

      On the other hand, the convention of other major wikis like Wookieepedia, Harry Potter Wiki, and The Elder Scrolls wiki is to give even twins separate articles even if their biographies are essentially identical. This is because at the end of the day, a twin is still their own individual, an independent entity from their other twin even if they choose to spend their lives together. So look at the example of Seer'aa and Teer'aa who are only ever encountered in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II as a pair. There may be an additional article on their group (not sure if two is really a group), Twin Suns, but there are separate articles on them as their own individuals. Victor and Hugo themselves are not even twins. Even if we don't encounter them separately from one another ever, they are still their own individuals unless the speculation of Fraser and St. Claire is proven.

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    • Sol Pacificus wrote:

      The evidence provided in the e-mail between Robert Fraser and Aidan St. Claire is "too flimsy" as Sadel said.


      Wrong S-named editor this time, Sol. Flimsy was my comment :3

      Also, we do have separate pages for the twin priestesses from Origins.

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    • Following up on Victor and Hugo should we just add a Legacy section to both articles and put Fraser and St Claire's speculation there?

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    • I'm just checking Rogue now, and it looks like the game actually specifies when a weapon is an Animus modification or not. The in-game descriptions say "made available through an Animus modification" for many of the weapons, including Arno's sword, the Templar Sword, and the katana. It does not, however, say this for Altaïr's sword which is looted from a chest in Anticosti after completing all Naval Campaign missions.

      Lacrossedeamon wrote:
      Following up on Victor and Hugo should we just add a Legacy section to both articles and put Fraser and St Claire's speculation there?

      I think it can go in the Legacy section.

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    • I was more surprised that it said it for James Gunn's sword which you loot from Fort de Sablé calling into question that whole mission/memory. I would have assumed it would be treated like the gear DLCs from Black Flag that added new areas to explore. If we ever do get to question Ubisoft on weapons like this as you mentioned I’d love to grill them on the canonicity of a lot of them because there are some helix store ones that ostensibly could be canon. Also I’d ask about stats.

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    • Lacrossedeamon wrote:
      I was more surprised that it said it for James Gunn's sword which you loot from Fort de Sablé calling into question that whole mission/memory.

      All of the wepons from the templar pack have "Made availiable through the animus", but I think they were refering to an animus update (dlc) rather than a modification (non-canon).

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    • I’m about to spin up the remaster to check if the descriptions changed any. Also to very the swords name change cause I want to double check myself

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    • Okay none of the descriptions changed although in the remaster the Katana is actually named Katana and Wakizashi and is in-between Altaïr's and Arno's in the list. I guess we have to come to a consensus on what made available through the Animus in this instance. The Templar pack gear has the benefit of being obtained through actual gameplay once the DLC is installed unlike the other two.

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    • Addendum: the outfits descriptions are super inconsistent. It only mentions being provided/made available through the Animus on the legacy outfits and not even all of them at that.

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    • I'd like to bring attention to the number of (character)'s robes and (games)'s outfits pages that seem redundant. I think we should merge them under (character)'s robes to remain IU.

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    • Just wanted to give you guys an update. It has now been 1 week since this thread was opened. As is standard, we will give it another week before finalizing the results. It will close on Sunday, June 7, 2020.

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    • Quick addition regarding merging Victor and Hugo. Against. Keep separate.

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    • Results

      It’s time to tally up the results and see which merges were accepted, which were not and which are still contested.

      Merge Y X A O W
      Category:Louisiana 6 1
      Category:Documents 6 2
      Category: Massachusetts 6 1
      Levant 7 1
      Sanctuary of Kosmos 6 1 1
      Assassin's Creed (series) 2 4
      Guild challenges 7 1
      Genetic memory 6 1
      Boat 7 1
      The Naval Campaign 3 1 1 1
      Greek mythology 2 7
      Seven Years' War 7 1
      Granada War 1 3 2 2
      Sword of Altaïr 6 1
      Queen Anne's Pistol 7
      Pirate Scimitar 6 1
      Hidden Blade 2 3 2
      French Cuttoe 4 1 1 1
      Grand Master 3 4 1
      Mentor 3 4 1
      Bounty hunters 5 1 1
      Privateers 4 5
      Hybrid 3 2 1 1 1
      Jupiter 5 1 2

      So, to sum up the table:

      Category Pages

      • All three category pages are agreed to be merged.

      Location Pages

      • Both location pages are agreed to be merged.

      Other Pages

      • The proposal to transform “Games and media” into Assassin’s Creed (series) gallery page is agreed.
      • “Guild challenges “, “Genetic Memory” and “Boat” merges are agreed.
      • “The Naval Campaign” and “Greek mythology” are not to be merged.

      Timeline Pages

      • Seven Years' War merge is agreed.
      • Granada War is not.

      Weapon Pages

      • Sword of Altaïr, Queen Anne's Pistol, Pirate Scimitar and French Cuttoe merges are agreed.
      • Hidden Blade is not.

      Individuals Pages

      • Grand Master, Mentor and Privateers are not to be merged.
      • Bounty hunters, Hybrid and Jupiter merges are agreed.
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