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Should the Blade of Yumminess, Ippei Blade, and possibly even the Blade of the Ephemeral be included here? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 20:34, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

The Blade of the Ephemeral is definitely not a katana, but as for the Ippei Blade... it sure looks like a katana or a wakizashi, but katana really didn't exist in the 1st century BCE... >_< The Japanese civilization at that time was still pretty much in its prehistory also. I have never seen the Ippei Blade or the Blade of Yumminess in game, but a proper katana has to be a specific length, and if Bayek consistently wields the Ippei Blade as a one-handed weapon, it would probably be too short to be a proper katana. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 20:51, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
I know historically the katana wasn’t developed until after the Mongol invasions (boo on Ghost of Tsushima for presenting them as seemingly ubiquitous at the time) but anachronism has never stopped Ubisoft before especially in regards to weapons. As for wielding, Bayek and Kassandra used a bunch of oversized swords with only one hand so I’m not sure that should be a consideration. Both are more Easter eggs than anything really canon anyways but technically are at least katana-esque if not actually katanas due to the time periods in which they appear. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 21:13, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
I am aware that Ubisoft is no stranger to anachronisms when it comes to weapons, but having katana more than half a millennium before the Japanese civilization had really come into its own is so drastic, it's a whole different story. Also, I didn't mean that Bayek and Kassandra couldn't hold two-handed weapons in one-hand, but katana are defined by length. I only meant that we would need to double-check the length of the swords to even know whether they are katana or not, but I'm betting ahead of time that they would be too short since all the swords they usually wield are shorter than katana. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 21:34, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
I mean they put a 17th century Mughal Indian axe in Origins which is a comparable time gap but I’ll try to get you some photos of the characters holding the swords so you can judge. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 21:41, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't include the Ippei Blade and the Blade of Yumminess here, I'm just pointing out the considerations we need to look at first.
Also I would have to take a look at the Mughal axe as well. The issue is that, is it really a katana if the technology and techniques to make it didn't even exist in Japan at the time?Or at most, should we have to say that it is a weapon that looks identical to katana of a later age? We might end up having to just leave that ambiguous. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 21:50, May 24, 2020 (UTC)
Well photos will have to wait til at least tomorrow because I am exhausted. I do wanna say that due to the weapons' Easter eggs status we should be able to sidestep the logic behind the anachronism if need be. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 22:19, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

Does that mean treating them as Animus mods? Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 22:46, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

Don't know about the length and size but they are definitely katanas or wakizashi or generally speaking post 16th century Japanese swords. And that anachronism is of course typical for AC considering that there are medieval flails in ancient times. And btw here is a photo of the blade of yumminess which itself appears to be recycled from the ippei blade. Nanomat (talk) 22:56, May 24, 2020 (UTC
You didn't mean the Blade of the Ephemeral right? Because that is definitely not a katana, its only resemblance being that its a single-edged sword with a moderate curve. However, the blade shape and cross-section of the blade would be all wrong, as is the guard which is unlike any that would be used by a katana, and it doesn't have the telltale fuller running down near the rear-edge of the blade. The skull-shaped pommel is also not an aesthetic that would be commonly used with a Japanese sword even if not impossible out of artistic license, and finally, the hilt is not long enough nor is the blade. In any case, my closest guess is that the sword resembles a kind of European falchion.
The Blade of Yumminess is also kind of weird. The circular guard hints that it's of Japanese make, but the blade also isn't as curved as a katana should be. It also lacks the fuller, and the taper of the tip seems far too dull. I kind of think it might be based on an older style of Japanese sword predating the katana. It might even be a Chinese goose quill saber with an exaggerated guard.
The Ippei Blade is certainly a katana though. I've looked at the Mughal axe, which I'm assuming is the Ceremonial Axe, and while it is a severe anachronism, we avoided writing that it's actually of Mughal origin in the intro or body. If we had described it as Mughal, it simply won't make sense despite the anachronism because the Mughal Empire didn't exist in the 1st century BCE. In the same way, we should avoid such in-universe anachronistic references, leaving the weapon's origins unstated or ambiguous, while merely documenting the weapon's existence. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 18:56, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
Well the Ippei Blade already is considered an Animus mod iirc since it’s part of the For Honor helix store pack in Origins. The Blade of Yumminess is a bit odd though because instead of being made available through the helix store or Uplay it was added to the blacksmith inventory through a random update, but it’s reference to the E3 video makes it more likely to be a non-canon item. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 18:47, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
If the Ippei Blade is just an Animus mod which Bayek didn't canonically wield, I'd be comfortable adding it to this page as a katana. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 19:09, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
I did mean the Ephemeral Blade but at the time was just going off my memory but on review you are right. The Ippei Blade is a helix item so yes Animus mod. The Yumminess Blade as noted is a bit more difficult but even its description obliquely hints at Japanese (well non-Greek) origin. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 19:46, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
I think the Blade of Yumminess certainly has an East Asian origin, but I am very doubtful that it's a katana after looking at the image provided by Nanomat for the reasons I've already explained. It could very well be an older Chinese sword, but even if it were Japanese, I'm not sure if it would necessarily be a katana. The reason is because in English, katana tends to refer to a specific type of Japanese sword and not just any Japanese sword, but in Japanese and Chinese katana (the indigenous Japanese reading), (the Sino-Japanese reading), or dou (the Cantonese reading) is a word for any single-edged sword, even European and Turkish sabers. Maybe if Nanomat can track down Ubisoft's source or model for this weapon, we can better certify if it's Japanese instead of Chinese, and if it's actually a katana. EDIT: For clarification, it doesn't look to me like the model of the Blade of Yumminess is recycled from the Ippei Blade, but I could be wrong. It could just be the different angles of the two swords. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 20:00, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
I think they are at least judging by the similar hilts and the amount of other recycled weapon models in the game but maybe better photo comparison is needed. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 20:12, May 25, 2020 (UTC)

I believe the model of the Blade of Yumminess is recycled from the Ippei Blade, it's just the lighting in this picture that makes it look different. Also bear in mind that most of the recycled weapons have some of their elements with different coloration apparently to make them at least slightly different and fresh. I doubt that they would bother to maker a new model for a weapon which essentially has the same design. As for the Blade of the Ephemeral, I believe that is also a katana it's just somewhat "demonified" or "kami-fied" or whatever they were going after with the skull and design in general. If it were supposed to be an European sword, EU swords with this style of blade would be even more anachronistic as they started appearing maybe 17-18th century and it should have had a hilt guard. Also the textures of the handle look to me like some kind of a Japanese pattern. Nanomat (talk) 21:21, May 25, 2020 (UTC)

It's not really the color of the swords that make them look different to me but the shape of the blade. The Blade of Yumminess looks incredibly dull, but you are right it would be weird for them to make a different model. I would have to see if I can get the weapons myself to verify.
As for the Blade of the Ephemeral, it's no question that it would be anachronistic no matter what. Swords like this simply didn't exist anywhere in the 1st century BCE, so the anachronism is moot at this point. However, the texture of the hilt is another feature that I think makes it look not Japanese, and even if it were, all the other characteristics of the sword still deviates so far from what a katana is. Why could we not imagine that it's a fantasy Middle Eastern scimitar or a fantasy European falchion or a fantasy any other weapon? As it is, it could even be a fantasy willow leaf saber, which it certainly resembles more closely [1][2][3]. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 22:58, May 25, 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, probably it is too fictional to associate it with a real world classification. I also considered the option of it being a Chinese sworld but the swords you show (and other google results) have either too bent handles or too short handles compared to the BOTE. I think the way the handle is straight and like a continuation of the blade is more akin to the katanas. The guard is apparently entirely fictional so it won't help us much. Maybe if we bother to photoshop the silhouette of the BOTE onto some swords might help to see if its profile matches. It's just that I'm more inclined to believe that the devs would base it on the cliched katana than some more exotic swords, even though they already have quite exotic weapons in the games. Nanomat (talk) 01:03, May 26, 2020 (UTC)
There were just a few more details about the sword I wanted to clarify. Not all willow leaf sabers have curved hilts;[4] it is just more common today. From the image you linked, the Blade of the Ephemeral seems to have a short grip that is clearly proportioned for only one-handed use, and a katana necessarily has a grip long enough to constantly accommodate two hands. Apart from this, one of the details that really stand out to me is the blade cross-section. It seems to be hollow-ground, i.e. with a center ridge protruding upwards. I've never seen a katana blade ever have such a prominent ridge and concave edges at its rear, and I would think it would drastically alter the way it cuts, but I am no expert.
You have kind of a point though that the katana is a cliché sword type that is more likely to be used as a basis by game developers even if they could have created this from any saber template. I think the thing about Chinese swords like the goose quill saber and the willow leaf saber is actually that they're less exotic even if also less cliché than the katana. They're fairly generic in design, and it's almost easy to accidentally design them without meaning to.
Well, regardless of what the developers used as their basis, I glad we can agree that the Blade of the Ephemeral doesn't fit into any real world classification perfectly. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 02:09, May 26, 2020 (UTC)
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