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(Compromise for the best of both worlds?)
(Compromise for the best of both worlds?)
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: More importantly though, if it's absolutely implicit that Kassandra is the canon choice, why even bother giving us Alexios to play as to begin with? Is it to be explained away that Kassandra was able to do all those male-restricted things from the childhood Spartan training to the male-only olympics because she had demi-isu strength? Why is the only difference we see with the story are the male vs. female pronouns along with the respective names used? If Alexios essentially doesn't matter as a playable character, why even have him as playable at all? Was Ubisoft simply worried that an exclusively female protagonist wouldn't sell well despite the fact that they've done it before along with other franchises? [[User:Christengo|Christengo]] ([[User talk:Christengo|talk]]) 08:40, November 18, 2019 (UTC)
: More importantly though, if it's absolutely implicit that Kassandra is the canon choice, why even bother giving us Alexios to play as to begin with? Is it to be explained away that Kassandra was able to do all those male-restricted things from the childhood Spartan training to the male-only olympics because she had demi-isu strength? Why is the only difference we see with the story are the male vs. female pronouns along with the respective names used? If Alexios essentially doesn't matter as a playable character, why even have him as playable at all? Was Ubisoft simply worried that an exclusively female protagonist wouldn't sell well despite the fact that they've done it before along with other franchises? [[User:Christengo|Christengo]] ([[User talk:Christengo|talk]]) 08:40, November 18, 2019 (UTC)
::My 2¢? By now this discussion, your questions, Christengo, might be better suited for Ubisoft's forums. Lacrossedeamon has aptly answered your question in regards to this wiki. [[User:Sadelyrate|Sadelyrate]] ([[w:c:assassinscreed:User talk:Sadelyrate|siniath]]) 09:00, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:00, November 18, 2019

This is the discussion page for Alexios.
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Canon protagonist for ACOD: Alexios or Kassandra?

Which choice between the male or the female protagonist is the canon one? I heard a rumor that the discarded choice will come back as an antagonist later in the game, so from a Wikipedian perspective we will have to make a choice for the articles... since Alexios is the one featured on the cover art and in the trailer, I propose to settle for Alexios for now. Until Ubi clarify the matter at some point later.Maxattac (talk) 22:19, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Players choose between Kassandra or Alexios to have as the protagonist, and regardless who they pick, the dialogue options are still the same. Like how Mass Effect has a male and female Commander Shepard, seems Ubi is following suit. And this has been confirmed by Ubi and by Scott Phillips, the Game Director for Odyssey. I admit I'm unsure how we'll address pronouns in Odyssey's plot summary, but I think our best bet is to use "the Spartan", as it'll cover both characters. -- Darman (talk) 22:56, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
It will also be interesting how will they reference them (probably "spartans") and choices we made with them (in dialogs) in future games and other following media, when it wont be possible who killed some person, done something,... Kulurak (talk) 06:51, June 12, 2018 (UTC)

     Can we make a share page for Alexios and Kassandra under the name of "the eagle" as they was called during the gameplay. It will be more easy for the future writing of their story.Francesco75 (talk) 06:42, June 12, 2018 (UTC)

This, or something along the lines, gets my vote, too. Would make linking stuff like "descendant of Leonidas" easier, too. Sadelyrate (siniath) 10:40, June 12, 2018 (UTC)

How about, since the official reveal and E3 gameplay was all Kassandra, choose her for now? Sadelyrate (siniath) 08:25, June 12, 2018 (UTC)

In contrast, on boxart + all official promo images is Alexios. So don't think we should use her as canon, i think they will be showing both of them trought year. But we will need to find some way to do it, if rumors are correct that main antagonist of game would be protagonist you didnt choose. --Kulurak (talk) 10:22, June 12, 2018 (UTC)
Currently. Before yesterday, we didn't even know about Kassandra, the chance to pick the protagonist. So would your position change if they came out with box art, a slew of promo (and other) pics featuring her? Sadelyrate (siniath) 10:40, June 12, 2018 (UTC)

According to the trivia, the novelization of the game considered Kassandra to be canon, therefore shes the main character. Its a shame kinda, I was leaning towards Alexios due to his stature everything.unsigned comment by AaronFireBird1 (talk · contr)

I did research into Greek history and there is no historical records of female heroines except for gods, not even demi-gods, in spartan culture the only way a woman could be given a headstone when she died was to die during childbirth because that was her dying in service to the state and the only reason women had a vote in spartan culture was to give there house a vote cause there husbands were away fighting wars. In Athenian culture women had no rights they could not vote, go to plays, or speak without the permission of men, women in all greek cultures were not allowed to compete in or even attend Olympics games. So it just doesn’t fit well to me yet when you go onto Assassin’s Creed Wikia they refuse to acknowledge any of this and say the developers have said that Kassandra is the Canonical Character because she’s the person that is being followed in the book yet when you look at many other novelizations they have followed other people other then the characters you played like Blackbeard, Haytham Kenway, Elise de La Serre, and Henry Greene so i dont see her being the canonical character as a good reason to wipe Alexios completly from being the main character in the game. So I feel what ever information you guys add to Kassandra's page it should also be added to Alexios' page for both to be seen as the main character. unsigned comment by AndyC89 (talk · contr)

Andy, all of the information you shared about Spartan and Athenian women is well known to us. The reason why we don't mention these in the articles of these two characters is, first of all, because the plot details of Kassandra is not yet known to us. For all we know, the game does accurately depict her marginalized status as a girl up until she is exiled, whereupon the story would no longer contradict the historically oppressed status of Spartan women because she is serving as an independent, stateless mercenary, not for Sparta. In other words, we do not have enough information to say how much unrealistic and historically inaccurate her role in the story is as of yet, so you must be patient.
Second of all, as a professional encyclopedia, we adhere strictly to proper sourcing, not our own subjective opinions. If a Ubisoft source declares that, despite players' option in the game, the canonical character and real protagonist is Kassandra, then it is Kassandra, no matter our own personal preferences. In that case, Alexios is not canonically the protagonist in Odyssey. This means that in Assassin's Creed lore, it is really Kassandra who does everything that you as the player does in Odyssey, even if you were to choose to play as Alexios instead. That is not our choice, but the choice of Ubisoft. We only document Ubisoft's choices. I am confident Alexios has a part in the canonical story as well, but it will not be as the player's story but either as a supporting character or even as the antagonist, and when the game is released, we will update it appropriately for Alexios's article to reflect the story of the character that is not chosen as the player character. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 03:56, October 1, 2018 (UTC)
Finally, as long as Kassandra doesn't starkly contradict the historical status of Spartan woman (and from what we know of her so far, she doesn't necessarily because her heroism is committed when she is a stateless exile), then we will not mention the marginalized status of historical Spartan women in Kassandra and Alexios's articles because it's not relevant to them specifically. If Odyssey does indeed heavily contradict these historical facts about Greek women, but not through Kassandra, then that information would be acknowledged in the articles about Athens and Sparta. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 04:00, October 1, 2018 (UTC)

That makes alot of sense. I am torn on either playing as Kassandra due to her being the correct canonical or Alexios because he looks so badass and awesome. unsigned comment by AaronFireBird1 (talk · contr)

AaronFireBird1 and AndyC89, in the future, please remember to sign all your messages with four tildes: ~~~~, so that it is clear who wrote which comment. As well, do not leave unnecessary spaces between messages. There should only be one blank line between each message. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 03:56, October 1, 2018 (UTC)

What i am trying to explain is yes Kassandra is the main character of the Novel but I'm trying to to give you any spoilers but fine Kassandra is the leader of the cult the book follows her rise as the cult leader while the game follows Alexios as he tries to destroy the cult the books have taken this route in the past as well following Haytham Kenway and Following Elise De La Serre so in the game if you play it canonically Alexios is the main character and Kasandra is the younger sister who runs the cult. AndyC89 (talk) 05:04, October 2, 2018 (UTC)AndyC89

Andy, I kind of wish I hadn't read that, but I understand your reasoning for sharing it, and it is my duty after all to check on these things. If it is true, then you may be right, and we have some serious thinking to do. However, until the game is released, we cannot act on this information just yet. I would ask that you please be a bit patient and hold off on it, and I thank you for your efforts and eagerness. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 05:35, October 2, 2018 (UTC)
im sorry for putting that i didnt want to ruin any of it but after re reading and reading every book and how the author likes to take a look at the templars side of the conflit every chance he gets along with the wording in the actual source and having followed and read every detail and side story of everything from this franchise along with ubisoft giving us the ability to choose characters im going off of what i believe is what the ubisoft meant by there statment i really didnt want to ruin anything for anyone cause i know everyone here is as big of a fan of this series as i am i just didnt want to see two very amazing characters being treated differently they both should be treated equally. (now while this is all still specualtion till the book actually comes out based off of all the facts is how i came to this hypothisis along with the fact that all game promotional material is Alexios and all book promotional material shows Kassandra.) again it was never my intention to do that but when i see a charater being treated unfairly i had to speak up so im sorry about my fustration. AndyC89 (talk) 05:47, October 2, 2018 (UTC)AndyC89
Andy, have you actually read the book or is this speculation or second hand knowledge? I ask because I too have heard a similar rumor but with a distinct and critical difference. Obviously even if you say you’ve read the novel it’s still secondhand knowledge for us and not verifiable until the actual release. But maybe we should completely lock this and Kassandra’s article until the book comes out. Also you seem to be under the impression that the Odyssey novel is written by the same author as Forsaken and Unity;it’s not and so you shouldn’t be basing anything off previous trend. Inductive reasoning is super faulty.Lacrossedeamon (talk) 05:55, October 2, 2018 (UTC)
It is just my speculation but i have read all the other books written by Oliver Bowden and he has a history doing this exact thing in almost everyone of them in Origins=Bayek's father, Underworld=Henry Greene, Unity=Elise (Templar), Black Flag=Blackbeard, Forsaken=Haytham Kenway, AC2=Leonardo Da Vinci, The Third Cursade=Niccolo Polo reading Altairs Journal to Marco Polo. If he can avoid it he always writes the story from someone elses point of view other then the playable character to allow for inconsistencies when he accidentally writes a name wrong or a certain detail to the events. put this with the historical consistencies of the time, the promotional ads, it points directly to (to me) Alexios is canon playable character. and yes while Oliver Bowden did not write Odyssey having set this precedent down for all past works to allow for some inconsistencies it is a natural conclusion. but i agree both pages should be completly locked and under construction till the book comes out to confirm. AndyC89 (talk) 06:12, October 2, 2018 (UTC)AndyC89
You just presented your own presumptions about the contents of a book and a game you've never read or played (nor heard of from secondhand sources who had advanced access) as "spoilers"... because you were that certain about the validity of your mere hypothesis...? Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 07:02, October 2, 2018 (UTC)
Yes I never tried to claim that i knew the exat story only from doing research into historical realities, how previous authors and how the books like to be somewhat different in the franchise so that both could be canon in the past, and the exact wording used from ubisoft when they made the annoucement that Kassandra would be canon in the book and showing "Her story". AndyC89 (talk) 16:00, October 2, 2018 (UTC)AndyC89
Umm, it doesn’t seem like you actually read any of the books because you got most of the points of view incorrect. Now I can’t speak for Underworld because I never read it but all of Ezio’s novels (Renaissance, Brotherhood, and Revelations) were from his point of view not Leonardo’s. Desert Oath was from Bayek’s point of view not his father’s. Black Flag was from Edward’s point of view not Blackbeard’s. The Secret Crusade was essentially Ezio’s point of view since it was a frame story of him reading Niccolo Polo’s journal which in turn was Niccolo retelling Altair’s story to Maffeo. Forsaken had extracts from both Connor and Haytham’s journals. And Unity had extracts from both Elise and Arno’s journals. N217062 (talk) 06:21, October 14, 2018 (UTC)
It is still the story from another perspective as i was saying if your not hearing exactly what i was saying while desert oath was from Bayeks point of view the story was still about Bayeks father and how it lead bayek to where he was at the beginning of the game. secret crusade was ezio reading the works written down by Niccolo Polo for his son Marco Polo to read. and you just said what i was saying with Forsaken Haythems Journal being read by Connor so yeah how have i not read them might want to read them again yourself. AndyC89 (talk) 22:38, October 14, 2018 (UTC)AndyC89
AndyC89, there's no point in continuing this discussion. Kassandra is the canonical protagonist, Alexios is the canonical antagonist. This is what actually happened in Assassin's Creed's story. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 00:18, October 15, 2018 (UTC)


Even if you play as Kassandra, does it still confirm who his father is? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 14:25, October 3, 2018 (UTC)

Info box image non canon?

Seeing Sima's decision to delete non canon images from the gallery should we also delete the promotional picture of him in the info box as he never wielded the Spear nor wore the Mercenary armor to my knowledge? Lacrossedeamon (talk) 04:05, October 22, 2018 (UTC)

It would not make sense for us not to provide this promotional image of him somewhere, but you are right that it should not be the infobox image. At the very least, it might go under Trivia. To be honest, I was under the impression that it was fine to include non-canonical images in galleries since we often have concept art in galleries anyways, but I suppose they should've been clarified as non-canonical. Sol Pacificus(Cyfiero) 04:18, October 22, 2018 (UTC)

Compromise for the best of both worlds?

Many fans still argue to this day over Alexios being Deimos is only canon with the novel and the novel itself has many inconcistencies with the game itself.

Sooooo...IS the tie-in novel REALLY canon with the game's story...?

I ain't trying to shun the desire for gender equality, albeit through whitewashing history, WHILE the history books are known to lie and give a bias towards the roles of men over women. But when you play the role of a man as a woman, it’s not immersion. It’s just a gender swap. Kassandra should have had her own story with meeting her own people. When selecting to play as Alexios, you’re just taking the role HE’S meant to have. Granted the game is more fantastical when you see the existence of mythical beasts and the existance of politheistic figures turn out to be more or less real as Isu...oh, and the afterlife turning out to be the Greek Underworld, despite how past titles have depicted the afterlife as eternal nothingness, thus breaking the lore in the same way the Animus giving you dialogue options along with choosing to be Alexios or Kassandra (only being explained away as "Layla's animus is different.").

For more details on other lore breaks in Odyssy, check out this video:

Another part of the pro-Alexios...head-canon as it were, is that when we see the gender swapped version of Kassanda’s childhood vs. Alexios’s and that it’s basically the same, that just clinches it for the history-savvy. Spartans didn’t train their daughters in the same way they trained their sons. Pandering to a politically correct audience be damned. Just as all Spartan men were expected to be fighters, all women were expected to bear children. Spartan girls were allowed to remain with their parents, but they were also subjected to a rigorous education and training program. While boys were readied for a life on campaign, girls practiced dance, gymnastics and javelin and discus throwing, which were thought to make them physically strong for motherhood.

THEN you have the notion of Kassandra winning the Olympics...yeah. They're both blessed with super-human strength and prowess on account of being hybrids, sure. They have fight in a loincloth instead of going full commando to prevent cheating in the game, true (even though Ubisoft was able to render naked statues, they probly couldn't get naked character models past the censors. Why they didn't just pixelate the genitals without actually rendering them WITH genitals, your guess is as good as mine...) But it was against Greek law for women to participate for many concievable reasons, as well as even watch. Especially when classical Greece was a chauvinistic culture. And they had their own games where they competed dressed. Why not just have Kassandra in that?

For all this, they'd be well-reasoned to consider Alexios's playthrough to be canon in contrast to the novel, apart from the novels key differences with the game. Even in the game itself, while you see plenty of female pirates, thugs and mercenaries to fight against, you don’t encounter any female Spartan soldiers—one of the few historical aspects the game stays grounded in. Personally I would've liked to have seen a dynamic similar to what you see in RPGs like Fallout: New Vegas where some options aren't open to a female player while other options are. Gay and lesbian sexual relations are okay, especially when that was a common and acceptable occurance back then. Those on the other side of the argument like to point out that Deimos was a man in Greek mythology. This is true, but he also had a twin brother named Phobos...who wasn't a horse. So in this case, both names are just assumed and given identities. BUT...the two main pro-Kassandra canon arguments are strait from the horse's mouth via an AMA from Jonathan Dumont: "Yes, there will be a canon [story, which is] represented by the novel. It features Kassandra and her journey. But in the game you decide your path, there is no right or wrong way." with the second being essentially supporting that on this wiki. Dumont's words are a bit minced at the end and project an interpretation that seems to draw two conclusions:

1. Yes, Kassandra as the misthios IS canon, despite how her social status as a woman would keep her from many in-story opportunities and situations in contemporary Greece and the fact that the book is inconsistant with the game itself. Period. STFU. And if you don't like it, TS. Play the game however you want though.

2. Yes, Kassandra as the misthios is canon...IN THE BOOK. But you can play the game as either of them and doing so as Alexios is neither really canon or non-canon with the story (provided neither him nor Kassandra are confirmed as Odyssy's lead in the next game), despite how the in-story opportunities and situations make MORE sense for him.

So, the literal bottom line is this: Why not make a compromise for both the pro-Kassandra and pro-Alexios fans? As there's multiple options of which way to go, add to articles of them both as Deimos and both as the misthios, and present the "canon" outcomes as the "book canon" in contrast to the game's canon. It'll just be a simple case of changing around names and pronouns along with adding on what happens when you do alternative options like spare Deimos's life. Call of Duty's wiki did it. Grand Theft Auto's wiki did it. This game took on a sandbox element that was controversial to begin with. For the fans, I say give them both stories. Let that be a tribute to them on this wiki.

Christengo (talk) 11:01, November 17, 2019 (UTC)

There are always inconcistencies between novels written based on other mediums. That is not evidence to support your goal. Kassandra is the misthios period. Alexios is Deimos period. --Revan's Exile (talk) 12:24, November 17, 2019 (UTC)

She's also already the confirmed misthios in media other than just the Odyssey Novelization. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 13:02, November 17, 2019 (UTC)

Ouch! Shot down! And after all the time I put into typing that... :(  That's the first I'm hearing of that though. If that's true, what other media has Kassandra as the canon protagonist besides the novel? Besides, when the novels themselves differ from the continuity, doesn't that essentially make them non-canon? Was Dumont really NOT saying the continuity of the book is no different from the game, despite the inconsistancies? The source that cites this specifically says "While Dumont confirms that there will be a canon story associated with Kassandra, he does not specifically respond to the mention of a definitive, playable canon storyline in the game." And why not add in the story of Alexios as the mistheos and Kassandra as Deimos in their respective articles with an asterisk at the top to all that pointing out that it's non-canon if it IS non-canon? We were given the options. Why not be able to read the outcomes of those options? Christengo (talk) 15:25, November 17, 2019 (UTC)

The outcome of Alexios being playable versus the canon outcome is the same just different genders. --Revan's Exile (talk) 17:40, November 17, 2019 (UTC)

That really doesn't answer the rest of my questions. Christengo (talk) 00:14, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if you have questions. Fact is Kassandra is the misthios, like you have been told numerous times. Get over it. Move on. --Revan's Exile (talk) 00:57, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

Now you're just deflecting more. It's hardly much in the way of fact when the book itself is practically non-canon and Dumont not specifically saying there is a definitive playable canon in the game. I'd still like to know what other media confirms her as the misthios if Lacrossdeamon wasn't lying. But otherwise, sorry Revan. Until you can prove otherwise, not buying it. Christengo (talk) 01:36, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

Buy into it or not that is your business, and I don't do business with delusional people who refuse to accept fact.--Revan's Exile (talk) 02:01, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

How is it even delusional to dismiss an obviously non-canon novelization and point out historical accuracies as well as testimony from the staff? How am I the one not accepting fact? Now you're turning to ad hominem attack because deep down, you really don't have an answer to any of those inquiries? Then I can only drop it because you're quite clearly impertinent and unreasonable. I've been as clinical as possible here. But I suppose if you want this wiki to be about as reliable as Encyclopedia Dramatica, that's comepletly your problem. Christengo (talk) 02:50, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this and step in. So... Kassandra and Alexios both appear in Rebellion and are given the same bio to show Abstergo's uncertainty in who was who. However there is a sequence that is a lead into Odyssey's first DLC which features Natakas as Darius's surviving child. This implicitly supports Kassandra as the Eagle-Bearer. She is also making a cameo of some sort in Brotherhood of Venice. Starting with issue 56 of the Official Collection Kassandra is also presented as the Eagle Bearer there.

The questions you raise are valid however. Any discrepancy between the novel and the game can tentatively be blamed on Layla's Animus. Any discrepancy between either of those and actual history can firmly be blamed on Ubisoft. I will note that for you Olympics example that even playing as Alexios is ahistorical because we IRL know who won the Pankration that year and it wasn't even Spartan.

If there were certain story and gameplay differences between which sibling was chosen things might be different. But as it is now, no. We aren’t a gameplay or walkthrough focused wiki; we are written with an IU perspective and that necessitates a singular canon. Lacrossedeamon (talk) 06:25, November 18, 2019 (UTC)

Well I appriciate you going out of the way in giving a more definitive, articualate, far less dismissive and well-rounded answer. But Perakles's death was also ahistorical. From what I read, he died of the plague and wasn't assassinated. Which could be better explained away as a cover up to hide the cult's existance similar to how the Templars might have covered up Pope Rodrigo's death. Wouldn't a Spartan MALE winning the olympics still still be more plausible than a Spartan female though? All that speculation aside, you make valid points there. And more to your other points, what sequence supports Natakas's survival to confirm this even if you play as Alexios instead? If Kassandra is the Eagle-Bearer in Brotherhood of Venice, are we anticipated to see Alexios as Deimos? Haven't seen him yet as of issue 73, and it would sure be mind-blowing to see him be ALSO depicted as the Eagle-Bearer.
More importantly though, if it's absolutely implicit that Kassandra is the canon choice, why even bother giving us Alexios to play as to begin with? Is it to be explained away that Kassandra was able to do all those male-restricted things from the childhood Spartan training to the male-only olympics because she had demi-isu strength? Why is the only difference we see with the story are the male vs. female pronouns along with the respective names used? If Alexios essentially doesn't matter as a playable character, why even have him as playable at all? Was Ubisoft simply worried that an exclusively female protagonist wouldn't sell well despite the fact that they've done it before along with other franchises? Christengo (talk) 08:40, November 18, 2019 (UTC)
My 2¢? By now this discussion, your questions, Christengo, might be better suited for Ubisoft's forums. Lacrossedeamon has aptly answered your question in regards to this wiki. Sadelyrate (siniath) 09:00, November 18, 2019 (UTC)
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