Talk:Assassin leader

Shouldn't Fang Xioaru be here?Killeras 11:12, December 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, he should, my bad. Adding him now. -- Master Sima Yi 11:37, December 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, also I think Ishak Pasha should be here too, as an Assassin leader. I would add him myself but I'm afarid I don't really know how, and might screw up again if I try.

Grand Master
I remember some time ago when we got clarification on what exactly the rank of "Mentor" was that we deleted the "Grand Master of the Assassin Order" article and moved the "Grand Master of the Templar Order" article to Grand Master. That's all well and good but I think we should still include the title of "Grand Master" on this article in the lead paragraph (maybe with a at the top). Mainly, this is because Mario Auditore's database entry in Brotherhood quite clearly labels him as 'Grand Master' of the Italian Assassins up until his death.

I'll try and get an exact quote later today; but opinions? -- 14:23, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Mario's database entry in Brotherhood doesn't label him as Master of anything. Just noble, mercenary and "a born leader." Sadelyrate (talk) 14:53, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Apologies, it must not be his entry, but one that mentions him. Regardles, the fact remains he is referred to as Grand Master of the Italian Assassins at least once. -- 16:24, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * He is referred to as such in the Brotherhood novel. I spoke with Darby McDevitt about this some time ago, and he mentioned that the title of the Assassins' leader was initially Grand Master but was changed to Mentor some time before Revelations was released - I think to differentiate the names of the Assassins' and Templars' leader. Thus, it is a retcon. I would agree with making a mention of this as a trivia point, but not in the lead section where the canon stuff goes. -- 16:30, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I was just about to edit my post when I remembered it came from the novel. Whilst I agree that it has been retconned out in favour of the title 'Mentor', it was still referred to quite a few times in canon, so the title does technically exist in canon. Perhaps a simple "The position of Assassin leader, sometime referred to as Grand Master was given to any member of the Assassin Order who had received leadership over a branch of Assassins." That is all it would need (and perhaps a mention on Mario's article, as he is the one in question.) -- 16:41, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * A retcon is an alteration of previously established facts, not the introduction of a new one. In the latest version of the AC canon, no such thing as a Grand Master of Assassins exists, thus it would serve no purpose in a canon paragraph. I stand by my point of putting it in the trivia section. -- 16:45, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Retconning something does not remove the original from the continuity, it simple retroactively changes it; the fact that Mario is referred to as Grand Master won't change, it is the fact that the Assassin leaders are no longer known as such that has been retconned. I would also say that whilst the rank of 'Grand Master' is explicitly stated in canon material, "Assassin leader" is a somewhat conjectural title we developed to refer to Assassin's with a seemingly higher level of authority (e.g. Machiavelli) whilst not having been refered to as Mentor or GM. I'm not suggesting we change the article name (for the same reasons the article was originally deleted), but it's all things we should consider. I have no issue with it being placed in the trivia section so long as it receives sufficient acknowledgement to that fact.-- 16:51, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * It removes the original from continuity by changing it to a new version, whilst the original medium is not re-released to display this updated version. Mario is referred to as Grand Master in canon material previously, but that does not indicate that the title of Grand Master still exists in canon. And canon is what we display in our articles. My opinion remains the same. Also, the actual title would be "leader", but since there are also Templar leaders this is the version to go by. "Assassin leader" is also a term explicitly mentioned in ACR's multiplayer: "I have an announcement to make. We now know where the Assassin leader, William M., is located." -- 16:57, March 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a minor point, so I guess we should just agree to disagree on that. Do you have a proposed wording for the trivia point? I would suggest it feature on both this article and Mario Auditore, as he is the individual in question. -- 17:07, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Al Mualim is also referred to as being a Grand Master, and so is Altaïr in ACR - admittedly at Darby's error. I don't think it would be really relevant to mention it on all their pages, so I think it'd be better to just mention it on the Assassin leader page and the Mentor page. As for the proposed wording, I'll let you decide. -- 17:23, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

How about this:

"Early in the series, the title of 'Grand Master' was used interchangeably and with some confusion, with the title of 'Mentor', with at least two Assassin Leaders – Mario Auditore and Rashid ad-Din Sinan – both being addressed as such. To avoid apparent confusion with the identically named title in the Templar Order, subsequent releases neglected to use the term in favour of 'Mentor' and 'Master Assassin', effectively retconning the title out of canon."

- Proposed.

If you have a record of your discussion with Darby referenced above, that would be handy to include as a source. Also, I have just noticed that the title of this page is list "Assassin leader (lower case 'L'); if we're treating this as a title we should probably capitalise the second word, or otherwise place a conjecture tag at the top of the page. AFAIK the only time the term "Assassin leader" has actually been used is in regards to the Den Defense units from Revelations. -- 10:27, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

"Assassin leader" title was used at least a couple of times in the Secret Crusade, in reference to Al-Mualim. Sadelyrate (talk) 11:22, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but the fact that it is uncapitalised suggests it is a description, not a title. A bit like calling your boss "the big man", it wouldn't necessarily make that his official title. -- 11:32, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Having the l in capital letters would be more conjecture than it already is, and not based on in-universe sources. I already posted a quote up top that refers to it as "Assassin leader". And yes, that wording sounds good. -- 18:31, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Malik al'Sayf
Shouldn't be Malik is supposed to be here as he was a temporary leader in the absence of Altair before Abbas usurped power? -- 22:56, October 24, 2013 (UTC)