Talk:Clay Kaczmarek

People, need confirming veracity of this:

'''It has been revealed that Ezio was the link between Desmond and Subject 16. The reason: Ezio sires a child or children that are in both Desmond's and 16's ancestral lineage (Since Ezio is a descendant of Altaïr this means that Desmond and 16 also share Altaïr as an ancestor, No it doesn't. This could have been Subject Sixteen's earliest memory, or he could have come from Ezio's mother's bloodline and not the fathers). '''

After the truth has been established, update the article. -- D. Cello 00:30, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

the video of subject sixteen shows adam and eve escaping from the garden of eden a god made slave labour camp where gods are using pieces of eden to controll humans in a scene theres a tall figure holding a apple of eden watching humans blacksmitheThe ghost assasin 13:45, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick note on a couple of the facts in the article. I don't believe Subject 16 could be from a different family off of Altair and share Ezio as an ancestor with Desmond. The break would have had to happen somewhere after Ezio (possibly Ezio himself, especially seeing his ways with women). I also think that the last section of the article - about Subject 16 being a direct descendant of Adam - is a bit pointless. If Adam and Eve truly are the first humans, shouldn't everyone be a direct descendant?
 * The glyph video shows many humans other than Adam and Eve - though they themselves may have been "Demigods" (human/Those Who Came before Hybrids) - at the moment, very little is known for certain about assassins creed's Adam and Eve; though it seems that Adam and/or Eve where ancestors of Subject 16, and hence probably Ezio, Desmond, and so forth - but not for certain - i.e the A/E link could only be on the fathers side, etc. --Yargling 19:10, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Your POVs does make sense, I think you could change it... Ah, sign your posts, please. -- D. Cello 04:10, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Who is the woman Ezio slept with in Memory Sequence 6? I don't see at all... --PhantomT1412 20:24, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok now I see, I missed the race...--PhantomT1412 20:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ezio is directly the Ancestor of S16. The reason Vidic and Lucy did not find the vault with S16 is because he killed himeself before they found it. So they did not know about the Vault. He also died before they found the map of all the Pieces of Eden, therefore they needed Desmond. --Dragonclaw 3:11, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Blood Lines

 * Is it possible that Subject 16 was a descendant of one of the other Assassins working with Ezio? Vidic was interested in S16's memories but could not find the vault. Is it not then plausible that the location of the Vault was not located by S16 because his ancestor was not Ezio who in fact did find the Vault? Could his ancestor have been another assassin who's memories were relevant to but not including the location of the Vault? If S16 was a descendant of Ezio then he would have found it because Vidic pushed him much harder than Lucy allowed him to push Desmond. So all in all: Who is the Ancestor of Subject 16? --Dark Scion 18:02, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ezio is S16's Ancestor. The reason that he does not have the memory of the Vault's location, is because Ezio's child (S16' Next Ancestor but not Desmonds) was conceived before Ezio found the vault. Therefore, the Vault's location would not have been transfered to the child through Genetic memory because Ezio hadn't been there yet. Then, after he went to the vault, he conceived Desmond's ancestor. This Child would have got the genetic memory about the vault as Ezio had been to the vault before conception. --Jamisicus67 21:52, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * A valid theory, but what we want is something a little more solid. Is there any evidence other than conjecture of this theory?--Dark Scion 03:01, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * At the beginning of the game Lucy searches for a memory that Subject 16 and Desmond have in common, it worked meaning that they are both related to Ezio since they both have a memory of him being born in common sure that could also mean S16 just happened to have an ancestor in that room but what are the odds of that ever happening and that idea would also be pointless and stupid. If S16 wasnt related to Desmond then the whole game could have been completely different or just a few parts its and like what Jamisicus67 said his ancestor might have already been concieved which most likey happened when he slept with Cristina (or something) while Desmond came from someone else (possibly Rosa). -- TitanGunz
 * Ooor.. 16 could be a descendant of another Maria or Giovanni son. Maybe Claudia? -- D. Cello 01:14, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a problem with what you say Jamisicus, there's absolutely nothing in-game or in-book to suggest that Ezio had any children before he defeated Borgia, let alone multiple children from whom 16 and Desmond are descended independantly. To Dark Scion, in order to answer your question it is most likely that 16 died before he could be made to access Ezio's memories of the Vault, hence why Vidic knew not of it.
 * Lucy says Vidic left S16 alone during sessions. Maybe S16 did discover the Vault, while Vidic wasn't there. Or maybe through his hallucinations through the bleeding effect. BleedingEffect 19:23, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lucy says Vidic left S16 alone during sessions. Maybe S16 did discover the Vault, while Vidic wasn't there. Or maybe through his hallucinations through the bleeding effect. BleedingEffect 19:23, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Obviously Ezio did have a child at some point, so that the bloodline could continue, but we can not possibly say it happened before 1499 without some sort of confirmation beforehand. User:Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 20:04, January 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank You, your explanation is very detailed and convincing. A few open ends and unexplained points, but very thorough nonetheless. --Dark Scion 17:30, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just thought of something, what if Uncle Mario is S16's last ancestor who connects him to Desmond? He knew about the Vault but never entered it. It's possible that the split between Desmond and S16 happened before Ezio was born. This makes sense if we are to believe Desmond and S16's shared lineage goes all they way back to Altair. It's just a theory, one which could be entirely wrong though. Jedted 16:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Categories
Do not remove the "Descendant of Altaïr" category anymore. He was a descendant of Ezio, who was a descendant of Altaïr. So therefore, Subject 16 was a descendant of Altaïr. -- Master Sima Yi 08:23, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Since Ezio is a descendant of Altaïr this means that Desmond and 16 also share Altaïr as an ancestor, No it doesn't. This could have been Subject Sixteen's earliest memory, or he could have come from Ezio's mother's bloodline and not the fathers)."--PhantomT1412 20:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * (In reference to PhantomT1412's quote of D. Cello)No offense intended, but that really doesn't make any sense. Any descendent of Ezio comes from both his mother's *and* his father's bloodline, and thus would have the DNA (and genetic memories, in the AC gameworld) of both. If Subject 16 is indeed a descendant of Ezio, then he is also a descendant of Altair, because Ezio is a descendant of Altair. JimmyTheCannon 00:37, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, indeed. Very well put, Phantom. -- D. Cello 20:10, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wasn't it your quote lol?--PhantomT1412 20:38, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Was it? That's why it was such a perfect explanation, then. ;D -- D. Cello 02:42, January 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Huh... wait, I'm starting to think that what we said makes no sense. A person inherit the DNA of his two parents, so both Desmond and 16 come from Ezio's mother's bloodline as well as the father's.
 * But I also have a doubt about 16 being Ezio's descendant as well... At the beginning of the game, the Animus is searching for relevant memory, not DNA. So if the machine was searching the relevance of the lineage, it wouldn't have only been Ezio's memory, but the memories of all his ancestors including Altaïr so why this came in first place. I would rather think, Desmond and 16 are not of the same family, and the Animus probably searched a relevant memory of their respective ancestors who lived in the same period and same place...--PhantomT1412 11:54, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

if sublect 16 was able to leave clues about "the truth" then surely he must be a descendant of ezio otherwise he would not of been able to influence the memory? - Killer 15:05, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * So can we re-add "Descendant of Altaïr"? Since we admit he's Ezio's descendant...--PhantomT1412 18:08, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * While it's likely that Subject 16 is a descendent of Ezio, I don't think that's why he was able to influence the memory. I think he hacked the Animus directly, and those glyphs would have appeared in anyone's memory - *but* they could only be deciphered by someone with Eagle Vision. It's noted at the beginning of AC2 that Lucy saved Subject 16's data as well as Desmond's, and that's most likely why the hacks were present in Desmond's memories in the Animus 2.0. JimmyTheCannon 00:32, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, sure, throw it in. -- D. Cello 18:11, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia
What's the Gettysburg battle bit about? I want sources, people, sources! -- D. Cello 14:06, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

In his little speech before Glyph 14, while rambling on a little about past experiences he says "I'm holding a rifle, Gettysburg is in the distance...". You can hear it in this handy YouTube Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx1e1nvG-A -- Chariflame 13:49, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Assassin?
Granted, Sixteen is most certainly a descendant of both Ezio and Altaïr, and more than likely a close relative of Desmond, but does either of the games or any of source actually name Sixteen as an assassin. I mean, having the blood of the assassins and being an assassin are two totally different things. Could someone provide a quote and source, otherwise I'll be removing the information. User:Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 01:12, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Page 176 of the official strategy guide says that 16 was an assassin capture by Abstergo Recon1medic 18:21, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a quote, or better yet, a scan of the page, proving that? -- Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 18:51, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Neumaan
The name does appear at AC, but there's no indication it referes to 16. If so, we need to identify who is that and properly categorize him in some article on the wiki. Jasca, can you copy the whole passage where the name appears, or try to identify the character? -- D. Cello 01:44, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps...
...S16 will be Desmonds Uncle or even cheesier his Father NOOOOOoooooooooooooo!!!!!

Lucan07 21:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Lucan07 dont im logged in

Well I personally don't think so, Subject 16's voice sounds like a young man's and Lucy refered to Desmond's parents without mentioning 16 as his father. I think they would be just distant cousins. PassiveNeoluna 22:37, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ah but what if She didn't know 16 was his father but you may be right maybe its his dare i say it his brother ahhhhhhhhh Lucan07 23:07, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

s16 and desmond are related but who is the woman in the truth video it is eve but i recognize her!!!!!!!

subject 16
I think that it is Malik there is subject 16 ancester, because in assassins creed one when Altair looks at the map the apple shows, Malik comes and saw it too, but not all of it and when abstergo found out that there was a map who showes the locations over all the other apples they needed to see all of it, so they have to find out who there has Altair as an ancestor and that is why abstergo found Desmond Miles because they wanted too see all of the map Altair saw. Abstergo didnt now there was a map, because only two men saw it Altair and Malik.

In assassins creed 2 lucy says that she new Desmond had an ancestor in Italy and how did she now? because of of subject 16, he also had an ancestor in Italy and Ezio meets him in the game right after he has got the apple back from Rordrigo Borgia and the person is an assassin his name is Niccolo Machiavelli. He looks a bit like Malik, that is why Lucy knew Desmond had an ancestor in Italy


 * That is a pretty weak assumption. After all how can we be sure Niccolo and Malik are related. Only because they look a little like each other? Cause we have to agree that Subject 16 could only know all these things if he had an ancestor both in Italy and Masyaf which were connected to each other. So it's a bit of too big coincidence that Malik also had a descendent in Italy who knew Ezio very well. And please sign your posts next time. -- Altaïr 19:03, 18 May, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that everybody knows Subject 16 is related to Ezio, and more then likely Altair as well. Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 17:08, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that is what I think, cause after all to stay in synch, Ezio must have visited all the exact same spots where subject 16 placed those glyphs, but only Desmond could see them. Ezio must have found -- Altaïr 19:14, 18 May, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Since the one memory match found in both DNA's was Ezio, it means that Desmond came from Giovanni line and 16 from Maria, or vice-versa. Also, until 40, we don't see Ezio's child, but that doesn't mean he was never a father. He could have had a son with Cristina or Amelia or other, but that kid wasn't Desmond's family, it could have been 16. I'm thinking in adding a Genealogical Tree in the wiki.... tooo many twists and turns... -- D. Cello 21:02, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

i beleive they where escaping a slave camp called the garden of eden which was a containment camp gods were using to force slave labour with humans controlling them with an apple theres a scene a tall figure with an apple watches humans blacksmithing top that pals

The ghost assasin 13:40, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Subject Sixteen's messages were written with his blood, and when viewed in Eagle Vision, they appear red, meaning hostile. Could this mean he was really evil and was a Templar? BleedingEffect 19:20, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I think it was just to make it more obvious that it was written in blood. If it had a blue shine to it, it would not be as obvious that it was indeed blood. -- Altaïr 21:27, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * PERHAPS
 * ____________________________________________________________________________________________\
 * do you think the blood on lucy's shirt in the start of AC2 might be the blood of 16 cuz he wrote stuff in blood and lucy was trying to stop him....
 * ____________________________________________________________________________________________\
 * do you think the blood on lucy's shirt in the start of AC2 might be the blood of 16 cuz he wrote stuff in blood and lucy was trying to stop him....

Is the morse code achievement "IAMALIVE" referring to subject 16? How can he be alive, i thought he drained himself of all his blood to write on the walls and Lucy said he was dead herself! Unless he somehow faked his death... But who else could it refer to? This game really gives us pause for thought! RussellSparrow 18:45, October 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ubisoft has another game coming out titled "I Am Alive." It's possible this achievement is simply a reference to that game. JimmyTheCannon 00:32, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Considering that you get the acheivement by finding all of his messages I would say thats highly likely who knows he could be living as an assassin.Sniperteam82308 00:33, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Gender
In Brotherhood doesn't the nerdy guy who updates the data say that Subject 16 was Pregnant and thats why the memories experienced by her were wacky? Pregnant=Female. I rest my case. Evnyofdeath 16:25, November 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Granted I haven't played Brotherhood yet, because I'm a PC player, but - if Subject 16 is female, then why was all of the audio in AC2 a *male* voice? That makes no sense. JimmyTheCannon 02:58, November 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Evnyofdeath, that was Subject 15. Subject 16 was repeatedly referred to as a "he" by Lucy.  Also, as JimmyTheCannon said, it was a MALE voice. JonAuditore 22:34, November 19, 2010 (USA)
 * Evnyofdeath, that was Subject 15. Subject 16 was repeatedly referred to as a "he" by Lucy.  Also, as JimmyTheCannon said, it was a MALE voice. JonAuditore 22:34, November 19, 2010 (USA)

Subject 16's quotes
Okay, I just had a brain blast. When Desmond talks to Subject 16 in the Animus, the part where he says "Your son...." and all that, he says, "I am with you until the end." Jesus said that at Matthew 28: 20. I know so because I am a Bible reader. He told his disciples that he'd guide them in finding believers until the end of present human government, but in the AC universe, the end of the world. I'm guessing his name would be one of the titles given to Jesus, more and likely Michael. I doubt it'd be Prince of Peace, or Eternal Father. Any thoughts? Strang3Happ3nings 08:04, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Just a Few questions ?
So one of Subject 16 anestors took part in the battle of Gettysburg, he says he can see Gettysburg in the distance, so would that mean he was a member of the Confederate army attacking the city ?

but i don't know much about american history

Also its say one of his anestor was conected to Queen isabella, but which one ?

yeah sorry if am asking the questions in the wrong place Adam2me 20:37, January 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * We have no way of knowing if 16's ancestor at Gettysburg was Confederate or Union, or even if they took part in the battle itself; all we know is that at least one of his ancestors was present whilst the battle took place. As for the ancestor connected with Queen Isabella, if we knew who his ancestor was, it would be in the article. -- Jasca Ducato Council Chamber Assassination record 20:53, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * No i meant which Queen Isabella as the Link in the article, links to a wikipedia page with alot of Queen Isabella to choose from . Adam2me 23:12, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * No i meant which Queen Isabella as the Link in the article, links to a wikipedia page with alot of Queen Isabella to choose from . Adam2me 23:12, January 3, 2011 (UTC)