Talk:Maria Thorpe/Archive 1


 * In the strange way that karma and reincarnation work, maybe Lucy is a descendent of Maria ;) Maskim xul 02:42, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It could very well be possible, good thinking. --Hells Angel 02:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

she couldn't be a ansestor of lucy becuese maria was a templar Theresa The Seer 23:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)Theresa The Seer

I believe that she may actually be Desmond's ancestor and will get with Altair in blood lines. I know that sounds like fan matchmaking but if you think about it Blood lines is supposed to explain the blood links between Altair and his descendants and Maria is supposed to appear in blood lines and is hinted to have a big part in the story. Sounds like a good story to me.

Lastname
We have any sources for the surname listed in the article? -- D. Cello 21:13, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering WHERE the last name is mentioned? -- Beirut

Well, seeing as no one is replying, could you make a move back to Maria, D. Cello? Master Sima Yi 08:19, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, it seems we have a possible source. At PSP, Maria's sword is called Maria Thorpe's Sword or something like that. -- D. Cello 21:42, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

Well, that seems good enough. Well, I'm afraid you have to make a move back then, no? Master Sima Yi 16:29, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

If this page is renamed to Maria Thorpe then shouldn't we have a disambiguation page for "Maria", with links to both this Maria and Ezio's mother Maria? -- BADavid 21:13, January 1, 2010 (GMT)

Yeah, you're right. We should. - Master Sima Yi 06:35, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Connection to Robert
I think we still have to settle what exactly her connection is to Robert. I read in Altaïr's profile, with his personality, that she is his daughter. The character is based on the actual Robert De Sable's daughter, however why would he give his own daughter a ring? That doesn't sound like a father's love to me... Altaïr 2:39, Februari 19, 2010 (UTC)

I agree her relationship to Robert is unclear, with Bloodlines mentioning her as "Robert de Sable's girl" but I assume the relationship is more a close student/teacher when she mentioned the ring was a gift when Robert "took [her] under his wing." The last name Thorpe is a Norse last name where de Sable is more French, so it's likely they're not blood related.PassiveNeoluna 03:03, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the source was official and I can't remember where it was from. It could be from this Wiki, but it said something that she had a failed marriage and escaped to the Middle East, though that does not reveal much of her relationship with Robert. I always thought before I knew she was based on De Sable's daughter, that they were lovers, considering the ring, and if you look at their facial features, they don't seem to be that different in age either Altaïr Februari 19, 2010 (UTC)

I heard the source was from the statagy guide of the first game, but I'm not entirely sure. If it's there, is should typed on her page.PassiveNeoluna 06:43, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I have the strategy guide in my possession. I'll take a look and see if the source is official. Then we can add this to this page perhaps. Altaïr Februari 19, 2010 (UTC)

There is indeed a profile of Maria in the strategy guide, in short she was a tomboy, parents couldn't get her to be lady, she married, but her wanderlust being too strong and she fled England discracing herself. At first she disguised her true gender, but she grew stronger, attracting the attention of Robert. He discovered her true gender, but did not care. It says she does not share the same beliefs as him. However she'll do anything for him, including dying. The strategy guide does not suggest any connection however as his daughter or lover. She is labelled as his steward but nothing more.

Then he was probably admired by her and made her his student? -- D. Cello 16:25, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well I'll type out the full thing from the strategy guide, so it might be more clear what went on between the two:

"Maria always dreamed of being a knight. A tomboy as a child, she was often ridiculed by other children and punished by her parents for refusing to "be a lady". She dreamed of leaving England for Jerusalem. -and winning honor and glory alongside the Crusaders. Alas, her parents forced her to marry and these dreams were crushed. After little more than a year, her wanderlust had grown to be unmanageable, and she fled England (disgracing herself) to sail for the Holy Land. She disguised herself as a man and rose to prominence amongst the Crusaders, eventually attracting the attention of Robert de Sable. He quickly discovered her true gender... but didn't care. Though she does not share his beliefs, he gives her the opportunity to be who she is. He accepts her. She'll do anything for him, including dying for him and his cause if she must. Maria is serious and severe in her thoughts, words, and actions."

I've posted like a short version based on this description in her profile for her 'early life. So she is definately not his daughter. But in 'Bloodlines' it is said that she received a ring. However I don't think reasons were given why. So it is either for romantic reasons or as some reward. There is some additional information which is more about her personality. Factions says, "Robert's Steward, Knights Templar". Also in Robert's profile in the strategy guide, it doesn't mention anything at all about Maria, which would suggest that other than a professional relationship, there was nothing between them.Altaïr 18:38, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

It would be safe to assume that when she joined the Crusaders she admired Robert among other Crusaders likely, since she seems to be such a dreamer. There's a small contradiction in the describtion imo. It says she did not share his beliefs, but she does support his cause. However it's possible that this is not a contradiction depending what they mean with 'beliefs'. In the additional information it said that Maria was religious, while Robert on the other hand does not believe in God. If this is not already in Robert's profile, should we add this?Altaïr 19:01, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

There is something else that caught my interest in the strategy guide. With characters which are not fictional or not completely fictional, it gives a description about who they actually were in real life. This is not the case with Maria. So I wonder, wouldn't they have left a small description about Maria either, if she was actually based on someone? It seems rather to me that she is completely fictional as we already proved that she is at least not Robert's daughter in the game, so I wouldn't put it in her profile that she could be possibly based on De Sable's daughter.- Altaïr February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well D. Cello as you said on another discussion. (I believe it was Robert's discussion). You think she's his student. And the ring doesn't really count as valid proof of a romantic relationship. Besides Robert likely didn't love her that much, if he sends her out to be killed by Altaïr in the cemetary. That's very romantic lol. So the ring could just be some kind of reward. So I think it's safe to say, that she was just his steward, as the guide says. So I don't think there's much point to discuss this further as there isn't any further evidence to support the theory of a romantic relationship, so I guess we'll just label her as either his steward or student. You're the admin here, it's your call. Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * A steward won't have the skills to fight Altaïr off and hold him while de Sable got to Arsuf, as was the plan. She was her steward, and when he discovered her gender and skill, he took her under his wing. Then let's update with this. -- D. Cello 15:45, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well 'Steward' can mean many things according to my girlfriend, who is scottish, I'm Belgian btw. It can mean servant, or even apprentice. And when you look at the origin of the word 'steward', it seems to fit the booth. From the dictionary: "O.E. stiward, stigweard "house guardian," from stig "hall, pen" + weard "guard." Used after the Conquest as the equivalent of O.Fr. seneschal (q.v.). Meaning "overseer of workmen" is attested from c.1300. The sense of "officer on a ship in charge of provisions and meals" is first recorded mid-15c.; extended to trains 1906. This was the title of a class of high officers of the state in early England and Scotland, hence meaning "one who manages affairs of an estate on behalf of his employer" (late 14c.). The Scottish form is reflected in Stewart, name of the royal house, from Walter (the) Steward, who married (1315) Marjorie de Bruce, daughter of King Robert. The terminal -t is a Scottish form (late 14c.). Stuart is a Fr. spelling, attested from 1429 and adopted by Mary, Queen of Scots."

So in my opinion we should refer to her as 'steward' as the guide suggests, however like I said it's your call, I'm just giving my two cents on it. Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, we know she *is* a steward, but why she can't be her student also? He was the Grand-Master of the templars, the best, he could be Maria's Al Mualim.. But go ahead, "steward" is simple. -- D. Cello 16:16, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well I don't think we need to explain it, because it's already rather filled out who she became concerning Robert in her 'early life', while her romantic relation is also explained in the topic of 'Assassin's Creed II', I don't see a reason to duplicate that information. Only if there was some evidence if she was his daughter or her lover would it be necessary to add this. So for now I only added in 'allegiances' that she's Robert De Sable's steward (before his death). Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)

I've edited her early life saying she rose up to become Robert's steward, cause I understand what you meant with the re-edit, that robert is not a faction, so I then put it in her early life. -- Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Character and personality
I think the description of her character is incomplete. I put that she's straightforward, but I believe someone here can do better. PassiveNeoluna 00:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'll add something to it if I can find more information. Altaïr 00:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

You did a great job of elaborating Maria, Altaïr. I checked my own points and fixed my grammar to help the section somewhat.--PassiveNeoluna 01:47, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks I try to do my best to improve this Wiki and I know my grammar is flawed sometimes so thanks for fixing that Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Marriage
Out of curiosity, is there evidence that supports the fact that she married Altair? She may have had his children but it does not necessarily mean they were wed.
 * The codex says they lived together. In practice, it's the same thing. But with more sex XD -- D. Cello 16:38, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Yes but that doesn't mean they were married. That's an assumption. I agree particularly in those days it is likely they were, but I just wondered where the evidence was for it. Maria Thorpe February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it was literally stated anywhere, but since they passed their whole life together, that makes her his wife. -- D. Cello 16:44, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

More like companion or life partner. Wife is merely a title and it doesn't mean much. It's the action that speaks more ;) Maria Thorpe February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Then should the relationship between the two be rewritten as life partners since the marriage is more of an assumption? PassiveNeoluna 19:50, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

yeah I think it would be more appropriate as we are trying to give actual facts here rather than wild guesses. Even in the codexes, Altair never referred to her as his wife. So I think by saying life partners, people will get the picture that they did in fact remain together. Then if we do learn something more later it can be added.

Maria Thorpe February 20, 2010 (UTC)

In that times, not every one had the money for a cerimony. Let the article remain as his wife, cause that's what she was, even legally speaking. -- D. Cello 20:18, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with what you said in case with money for ceremonies, however the strange thing is that in the Codex he says "It is time she and I will have to talk to our sons", which raises the question, why didn't he say "It is time my wife and I...." or just even "Maria and I..." It does give the implication that they stayed a long time with each other and had multiple children. Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Guys, a wife as we know is a term. More important, it is a christian one with origins in the middle ages. In that time, they rarely married out of love. If you are an assassin who goes out every day fighting dozens of guards and stabbing blades in people's necks, and discovered that every religion and thing in history is a farse created by a powerful rounded device, you wouldn't waste time with a cerimony proclaiming how you will love each other forever and be there for one another until death to you part. That is *implied*. They lived together, they had childrens together, they loved each other. Just because they don't have a signed branded piece of paper, it doesn't mean they weren't married. --20:30, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well it is only a title... If people get the picture when we say she was his wife, meaning she stayed with him for either the rest of his life or a very very long time, that should be sufficient. I mean a term like life partner could be more confusing or companion, cause that doesn't always suggest that they were in love. Partner as in a professional way as assassins? Could mean that too... Or companion as in travelling companion... Could also be confusing. So I guess the term wife even if we are not a 100 percent sure is still the safest to use. Altaïr February 20, 2010 (UTC)

I actually think by calling her a wife it is implying a ceremonial event, as after all, that is why I asked the question. When I first read it, my thought was exactly what was said, they were married. You can't assume that people will think other than that. Again, it's an assumption. By saying life partner, everyone knows exactly what that means. Who wouldn't? But at least by writing that, you are showing that no assumptions are being made or conclusions to evidence that doesn't exist. Like I said, it's the reason I asked in the first place, because I thought well, it must be known. And it isn't. And as you said, marriage was in that time a very religious ceremony, and I can't believe for a single second that either would have gone for that after everything they have discovered. So life partner is almost exactly right. They were a team, not a man and his wife which was based around the idea of property. Just as slaves took the name of their masters, so wives took the names of their 'masters' aka their husbands, and it's still stuck to this day. I just think by writing life partner, it creates less confusion, cause indeed it does seem odd that they did 'marry'. They chose to stay together, and in that time, there is a big difference between that and marriage. Also, they both came from different religious backgrounds, so they would have had to have opted for either religious ceremony if they did, again, it does not seem realistic. I just think if you want to create a good solid fact file about them, then you need to base it on what is known, not what is assumed.

Maria Thorpe February 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are so sure about that, just go and change it. I think that worrying so much about one term is irrelevant, as we know they spend their lifes together and had children, and she is his wife in the sense of the word. -- D. Cello 21:30, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Promoting
I think that after extending her profile with her 'early life' and finally solving the mystery who she was to Robert this article can be promoted! lol Altaïr February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping for that, but it's best to double check the article as a whole, since I noticed inconsistency of tense and some rudundancy is sections. I'll try to spot what I can. PassiveNeoluna 20:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Requirements for FA status -- D. Cello 01:46, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I guess this is you hinting it's not ready to be promoted?Altaïr January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Must be, though I'm not exactly sure on what to work on or improve. PassiveNeoluna 02:56, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I think this page is also, 'as good as it gets', though some behind-the-scenes information would surely make the article stronger. I think there was such information, such as her being based on De Sable's daughter, however we learned that was not the case. But her early life and such are directly based from canon sources such as the strategy guide. It's also good that we've finally confirmed what relationship she had with De Sable, which also should make the article stronger. I have added and corrected small information about Assassin's Creed II, though I haven't really worked on the information of Bloodlines. - Altaïr January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just because the final character isn't de Sbale's daughter, it doesn't mean the idea for the character didn't come from her. Google is a powerful tool for finding behind the scenes info. -- D. Cello 05:36, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yes and I've done that. Some forums still state the same, but these are really old posts, and it seems likely they used this site as a source. Newer posts on forums members speculate that she was more likely her lover. But we have no confirmation of that and I don't think we will. So unless there is another spin-off game coming that will reveal more about Maria it is safer to put her as her steward. Already certain facts point in the direction that she wasn't. While some do, that she has his ring and that she was very loyal to him. But the ring could have been a reward and her loyalty comes from who she is, as she was a dreamer to become a Knight Templar. Also I would have my doubts if actually the names were based on each other, but the name Marguerite, comes from the Spanish name Margarita, while Maria comes from Myriam. They have no connection other than that they both start with 'Mar'. Again I looked this up from a name site, to see for sure. - Altaïr January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Other than the behind the scenes, what else is missing or in need of improvement? PassiveNeoluna 03:24, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Personally I wish we had more trivia concerning her. We actually once did about her being based on De Sable's daughter, but that is now almost a complete assumption. Altaïr January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well how about trivial information of her status as a Crusader and how it would of been different in the actual Crusades? Unless women at that time can train as knights. Or maybe something trivial relating to her first or last name? That's all that I could think of anyway. PassiveNeoluna 04:40, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

I looked up the meaning of her last name and it says this: 'From old Norse þorp "village".' Her first name means 'bitter'. Though you could say her first name kind of relates to her, the second one doesn't really - Altaïr January 24, 2010 (UTC)

There was indeed female Templars in the Crusades, but some sources suggest they were almost like nurses, treating the wounds and such of the men. However there is artwork of the 13th/14th century that does portray female Templars that have caused people to doubt whether there were real female fighters. But I don't think we need to worry about this concerning Maria as it was clear that she is a unique example as she hid her gender for some time and then even when discovered, was allowed to continue just as she was. You can see from Bloodlines that this is the reason Armand and the others look down on her, because now Robert is not there to protect her. Maria Thorpe January 24, 2010 (UTC)

To Altair, I think it's interesting that her name means bitter and it may have been connected to her personal rebellion against her expectations as a noble; though I'm wondering why her last name is Thorpe? To Maria Thorpe, so women were still allowed to be soldiers if they could, instead of being nurses in the Cursades, or I misunderstood? PassiveNeoluna 20:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yes the first name might make sense that she does seem to be bitter towards Altaïr, however I'm sure it was chosen out of Biblical reasons. Did they already know that she was the ancestor of a prophet, namely Ezio by then? Which would be interesting since Jesus was a prophet to many. As for Thorpe, this name was probably created/added around the making of Assassin's Creed II. I think they just added it with no reason at all. Not all names have meanings that reflect the character. Altaïr February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well it seems that for a long time it was assumed that there were no female Templar Knights, but the artwork of the time is what has brought doubt, so I think it is still something that is greatly debated. But I read about how it was common for the wives, daughters etc of Knights to be involved here and there. Like I said, it is greatly debated and supposidly the presence of female knights was kept secret which of course makes it difficult to gain information about it. Though it does seem plausible to me at least. Even with Ninjas, they know that women were also Ninjas, even if they had families, husbands, children who knew nothing about it, they had their secret life as a Ninja, but again kept secret as women were considered to be the absolute last suspects. Maria Thorpe Feb 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well thank you for elaborating my trivia suggestions Altaïr and Maria Thorpe. --PassiveNeoluna 22:05, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

If anyone who watches this page could contribute trivia or improve the content in general, it would very much appreciated. Since there are still issues I have trouble finding to get this promoted PassiveNeoluna 00:11, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Her Age
How old is Maria exactly? I would think she's in her 20's during the first game and Bloodlines. PassiveNeoluna 05:47, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, The strategy guide states that she is in her early 30's. I think they wanted her to be closer to Robert's age who is about 35. Altaïr February 24, 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't say what her exact age is? PassiveNeoluna 16:12, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

No unfortunately it only says '30s'. With Robert it says mid 30's. Which we can assume from these terms that Maria is in the start of her 30s. Altaïr February 24, 2010 (UTC)

So she could from age 30-32 from what I could think and born around 1159-61. Once her age is clearer, I'll plug in her year of birth. PassiveNeoluna 19:49, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

That's what I intended to do, but so far I've not found any source that quote her exact age. And maybe her age changed when the makers decided to change her into Altaïr's life partner. - Altaïr January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well her age should be left alone for awhile, until something official comes up but if you do find a good source, I'll leave it up to you Altaïr --PassiveNeoluna 21:51, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Gallery
Hey, I'm just of opinion the gallery of this article is too crowded. I think we should put a limit on galleries. And I mean all galleries. So I would really remove pictures which aren't that essential or just are very similar to other pictures in the gallery. Since you've been working on this a lot PassiveNeoluna, I'll let you decide which pictures you think should stay. Btw off topic I changed your picture in the staff area, cause I saw it on Deviantart in your gallery. If there is another you prefer, just tell me, okay? -- Altaïr May 26, 12:18, 2010 (UTC)

Okay I'll pick them out and I actually wanted to have a pic of Claudia instead. Maria just doesn't fit with me. --PassiveNeoluna 15:20, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Origins
Maria was French or English? oO -- D. Cello 16:46, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

It said in the game guide she was English. PassiveNeoluna 19:11, May 30, 2010 (UTC)