Talk:Ratonhnhaké:ton/Archive 2

Move proposal
It would seem that Connor's name is not Connor Kenway. It was a misconception that originated with GameInformer, and it quickly spread the web. Alex Hutchinson already quickly addressed the matter by saying that the name is a spoiler. However, I do not have an official source for this, other than an inside source. Therefore we can't just remove any trace of the surname Kenway, and completely removing it would also raise suspicion.

However, I cannot help but be bothered with seeing his name like this though, and thus I would like to request a move to Ratonhnhaké:ton, his birth name. When the game does come out, the article title will either have to be Ratonhnhaké:ton or Connor. I personally find Connor to be a bit on the short side, and it is merely a pseudonym. Therefore I think that the name Ratonhnhaké:ton would be the better of the two options, and we can already move the article now without removing the traces of the name Kenway. Even if Connor does turn out to take on the name Kenway and I am wrong, this name would still be a pseudonym and not his actual birth name. -- 21:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

;Move to Ratonhnhaké : ton
 * 1) --  21:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) I've always liked his Native name rather than Connor. Bonzi_06 21:49, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) I still don't like what happened to Al Mualim, but if it's standard procedure, by all means. 01:12, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) Ratohnhaké:ton, to me, just sounds much more authentic. Have "Connor" redirect to the page. --Jjacobmartinn (talk) 05:19, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) Gr. Edit conflict. -- 05:20, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6) While I initially thought typing the name into a search bar would be a bitch, now that the suggestions pop up once again, I support this. --Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie  07:24, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7) --ACsenior (talk) 13:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep as Connor Kenway and move to Connor later
 * 1) There's a reason Connor is Connor and it's so his name is easier for us to say and write. Using his birth name defeats the purpose of him having an assumed name. Look at Michael Caine, Prince, George Michael, Elton John and Freddie Mercury, those aren't birthnames but they're the names these people go by. --Alientraveller (talk) 21:58, October 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * 1) As long as a redirect to Ratonhnhaké:ton exists, I won't mind at all. Slate Vesper (talk) 21:46, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) I second this. I will still call him 'Connor Kenway' until I'm proven wrong officially. 18:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) Alientraveller, in regards to that, we have always used real names rather than the pseudonyms or titles that characters are most known by. For example Suleiman the Magnificent is called Suleiman I. Real names have always taken precedence over the names people are most known by. -- 22:15, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) I wouldn't consider it a pseudonym or title, it's a completely valid alternative name with historical precedent: notable Native Americans (eg. Joseph and Molly Brant, Joseph Cook, John Norton) from the period adopted English names for ease of communication. I'm suggesting third option now, of Connor Ratohnhaketon, similar to Joseph Brant's parents being called Peter and Margaret Tehonwaghkwangearahkwa. Anyway, this is all my opinion, I don't mean to sway anyone one way or the other. Both names are valid for Ubisoft and should be used across the Wiki. --Alientraveller (talk) 23:09, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) Hm you know Sima... now that you mention it, that does sound like a good idea. Alientraveler, putting "Connor" and then his birth name is kinda redundant as it is not a surname but his birth name. One thing I am curious about is bringing up La Volpe, as it is not his real name even though he goes by it. Well I don't have much else to say on this matter.. so long we have a redirect because I don't think I can memorize the spelling of Connor's birth name.  Supreme Master Assassin IL Mentori 04:49, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6) I'm a hold out until the game is released. I prefer Connor but Sima makes a very good point. -- ► Kaloneous ◄♣HelpDesk♣ 04:54, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7) Why don't we just wait until the Game release and update it according to the database entry. 05:04, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 8) That won't do, Bob - Revelations database still had "Al Mualim" there, while the novel named Rashid properly. I suspect it will be the case here too. --Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie  07:34, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 9) Does that mean every 'Connor' in his article will be changed to Ratohnhaketon or is it just the page name? And does that mean everytime we link Connor's page we will have to write his full name? 13:21, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 10) You'll be able to just link with an alias. Same way the pages that say "Al Mualim" still have Rashid ad-Din Sinan in the link. That, and copy-pasting isn't hard.--Kainzorus Prime Walkie-talkie  13:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 11) This the same discussion that was discussed earlier further up the page. in my view there is precedent either way, not sure you can properly compare an assumed name/pseudonym with a title, in most countries a name taken up by someone for use as an identifier is an official name and treated the same as a birth name, regardless if you replace your previous/birth name or are known by both. 13:32, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

One week of voting has passed, and the majority is in favor of changing the name to Ratonhnhaké:ton as opposed to leaving it like it is. -- 08:05, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Who is Ratonhnhaké:ton
I gotta reply to this Master Sima Yi guy. Connor Kenway if it is his name is his official name. It doesn't matter if it's not his actual birthname or not. When making bio's and the like you use the name they are most well known for, not what name they were given at birth. For example below...

Taken name ~ Given Name

Jackie Chan ~ Chan Kong-sang

Charlie Sheen ~ Carlos Irwin Estevez

Ferdinand Magellan ~ Fernão de Magalhães

Genghis Khan ~ Temujin

Mahatma Ghandi ~ Mohandas Ghandi

Cristopher Columbus ~ Cristoforo Colombo

People know who Snoop Dogg is not who Calvin Cordozar Broadus is.

LancelotLoire (talk) 09:33, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * There has been a vote, the majority voted for Ratonhnhaké:ton. Thus, the page is named so. There are still redirects that bring you from "Connor Kenway" to the actual page. Nesty  Contact me! 09:58, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * This "Master Sima Yi guy" has already pointed out that his name isn't Kenway to start with, and there indeed has been a vote in which the majority voted for Ratonhnhaké:ton. You should have voted Nay when the vote was still open, and even then the majority would have voted Yay. -- 10:03, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Forget the Kenway part then. His name is officially "Connor". There is no mistaking it for anything else. Have you ever heard of Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake? No you probably haven't, because he's known by his adopted name Sitting Bull.LancelotLoire (talk) 12:31, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah we get your point man, but there was a vote for it you know so just get over it. i particularly like Ratonhnhaké:ton anyway. Trever09 (talk) 12:35, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have never heard of Sitting Bull either. You keep completely ignoring the fact that Connor is not the name he is known by, but one of two names. He still goes by the name Ratonhnhaké:ton among his fellow Native Americans, but goes by the name Connor among the colonists. With two names he is known by, why would Connor be the dominating one, while Ratonhnhaké:ton is his actual birth name? It also has no use in battling the result of a community vote. If you really are so dissatisfied with it, you can create a new vote in the same format as I did mine. -- 12:37, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sitting Bull was a Lakota chieftan famous for defeating Custer at the battle of little big horn. Also should include this link http://assassinscreed.ubi.com/ac3/en-gb/game-info/index.aspx which shows even ubisoft only uses the name 'Connor' in fact not once on that page is Ratonhnhaké:ton mentioned. I have no idea how these votes of yours go or anything, as I only just visited this wikia today. As for Connor being the dominate name, I've shown you several examples of how adopted names are dominate over birth names. There are really no examples of birth names being dominant over an adopted name.LancelotLoire (talk) 12:47, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, Ubisoft always uses the name Connor because they shamelessly said multiple times that even though have trouble pronouncing and writing the name Ratonhnhaké:ton. Does that mean we should too? It's the actual released media that we go by, not promotional material. As for your other examples, they have no relevance to Connor's case. I get where you are coming from but I disagree with you, and something as major as this will not be changed back without a community vote. -- 12:50, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then set up another vote. And as for should we too... Yes I think we should also. I have only really seen very few mentions of that Ratonhnhaké:ton.. On a quick subject change. I have an even bigger issue of a racial stand. Replacing the word "Native American" with the more correct 'Mohawk'.LancelotLoire (talk) 13:07, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * That last point can easily be done, but I am not setting up another vote seeing as I don't want it changed. If you want a new vote, you will have to create it yourself. I have no problem offering help to somebody else, but this is with the intention of undoing something I have done (which I still support) and that is just silly. -- 13:10, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you on the Mohawk change. Native American is imo a racial slur created by politicians. And that last part of what you said... As the admin you should not have any opinion whatsoever. It's even worse when there is a historical standpoint to the counter argument showing false info.LancelotLoire (talk) 13:17, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * An admin is just a member like everyone else entrusted with additional duties and is just as well entitled to his own opinion and to express that. You are just as well capable to start that vote, and I'm not going to start it for you if you don't even try. If you have tried and are facing problems, I will help out. -- 13:21, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I have no idea where to look to put a vote up in the first place. LancelotLoire (talk) 13:24, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * You just do it here, create a new section explaining your opinion, then create three sections titled Yay, Nay and Comments similar to the vote up above... -- 13:25, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Page Vote
Alright with Master Sima Yi's allowing a new vote about the naming style here it is. You can still check the previous vote to see the reasoning and I'll include a couple countering arguments under the comments.LancelotLoire (talk) 13:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Leave as Ratonhnhaké:ton


 * 1)

Change to Connor


 * 1)LancelotLoire (talk) 13:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Comments


 * 1) The first example used was "Suleiman the Magnificent" being known as Suleiman I has no bearing in the concept. 'the Magnificent' aspect of his name is an epithet which are generally never used during the person's life. A far better example would be that of Augustus who was the first emperor of Rome. His actual birth name was Gaius Octavius. Furthermore to bring up some people more closely related, Joseph Brant(Thayendanegea), Joseph Louis Cook(Akiatonharónkwen), John Deseronot(Deserontyon), are all Mohawk's from during the revolutionary war who are listed and known under adopted names with a mention of their tribal name. LancelotLoire (talk) 13:54, October 19, 2012 (UTC)